Trial Discussion Thread #31

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Hello everyone

I've been reading this thread since the beginning, pretty much - thank you all for your interesting and insightful comments.

However, I have specifically signed up to weigh in on the heart beating issue.

Viper, you are not correct.

Saayman only ever said that Reeva took a few breaths after the head shot - Botha said the same. He also said she would have died fairly soon after that.

Not breathing does not necessarily equal dead. I think that you have assumed it means the same thing when it does not.

Her skull fractured after the last shot meaning that the brain stem was destroyed. This is the area of the brain responsible for breathing, so she stopped.

Hearts are autonomous organs with their own electrical system. They can continue to beat for up to 6 minutes after breathing stops (depending on many factors, of course). It is highly likely that Reeva's managed to keep beating for a few minutes at least - this would not be unusual.

Blood spatter analysis is more than some man looking at spots of blood and deciding they are arterial. There is a a specific type of pattern than can only be formed by blood being pulsed out because of ventricular movement. If Van Der Nest said the spots were arterial, then they were. No amount of jiggling a body about will form the exact same pattern as arterial spurts.

What you seem to be suggesting is that two very important state witnesses are in direct contradiction - Van der Nest says her heart was beating as she was brought down the stairs while Saayman says this stopped in the toilet?! This isn't very likely.

Also, a thread or two back, someone was confusing Reeva's clenched teeth with rigor mortis. Obviously, this wasn't rigor mortis (impossible), but there is a thing called caderivic spasm where muscles stiffen at the moment of death - usually when a death has been particularly violent and emotional.

This explains Reeva clenching her teeth as witnessed by Dr Stipp - further evidence that she died at the bottom of the stairs.

For what it's worth, Jake18 and Crasshopper clearly are medical professionals and know what they are talking about - and they are right.

Reeva's head injury stopped her breathing. OP brought her out of the toilet very soon after this, and her heart was managing to beat weakly as she was brought downstairs. This stopped and she went into spasm either halfway down or at the bottom of the stairs.

The cast off spatter that Roux mentioned would be in relation to the spatters on the headboard & wall - OP mentioned that himself on the stand. At no time did Roux query the arterial spurting evidence, which he would have done if there was dispute about this.

For me, this is the evidence that will convict OP. It is impossible for him to have shot Reeva at around 3am given that her heart was still beating 20 minutes later. It's totally possible for him to have been standing on the stairs with her 5 or so minutes later with her heart feebly managing a few dying beats, though.

To reiterate, the confusion has come about because of your assumption that Saayman saying she took a few breaths meant this was when she died. It would not mean that, and this does not necessarily follow - death is often a process not a single event.
 
Hello everyone

I've been reading this thread since the beginning, pretty much - thank you all for your interesting and insightful comments.

However, I have specifically signed up to weigh in on the heart beating issue.

Viper, you are not correct.

Saayman only ever said that Reeva took a few breaths after the head shot - Botha said the same. He also said she would have died fairly soon after that.

Not breathing does not necessarily equal dead. I think that you have assumed it means the same thing when it does not.

Her skull fractured after the last shot meaning that the brain stem was destroyed. This is the area of the brain responsible for breathing, so she stopped.

Hearts are autonomous organs with their own electrical system. They can continue to beat for up to 6 minutes after breathing stops (depending on many factors, of course). It is highly likely that Reeva's managed to keep beating for a few minutes at least - this would not be unusual.

Blood spatter analysis is more than some man looking at spots of blood and deciding they are arterial. There is a a specific type of pattern than can only be formed by blood being pulsed out because of ventricular movement. If Van Der Nest said the spots were arterial, then they were. No amount of jiggling a body about will form the exact same pattern as arterial spurts.

What you seem to be suggesting is that two very important state witnesses are in direct contradiction - Van der Nest says her heart was beating as she was brought down the stairs while Saayman says this stopped in the toilet?! This isn't very likely.

Also, a thread or two back, someone was confusing Reeva's clenched teeth with rigor mortis. Obviously, this wasn't rigor mortis (impossible), but there is a thing called caderivic spasm where muscles stiffen at the moment of death - usually when a death has been particularly violent and emotional.

This explains Reeva clenching her teeth as witnessed by Dr Stipp - further evidence that she died at the bottom of the stairs.

For what it's worth, Jake18 and Crasshopper clearly are medical professionals and know what they are talking about - and they are right.

Reeva's head injury stopped her breathing. OP brought her out of the toilet very soon after this, and her heart was managing to beat weakly as she was brought downstairs. This stopped and she went into spasm either halfway down or at the bottom of the stairs.

The cast off spatter that Roux mentioned would be in relation to the spatters on the headboard & wall - OP mentioned that himself on the stand. At no time did Roux query the arterial spurting evidence, which he would have done if there was dispute about this.

For me, this is the evidence that will convict OP. It is impossible for him to have shot Reeva at around 3am given that her heart was still beating 20 minutes later. It's totally possible for him to have been standing on the stairs with her 5 or so minutes later with her heart feebly managing a few dying beats, though.

To reiterate, the confusion has come about because of your assumption that Saayman saying she took a few breaths meant this was when she died. It would not mean that, and this does not necessarily follow - death is often a process not a single event.
BBM

Welcome to WS

:tyou:

Great first post :)

I "Thanked" your post, but don't totally agree with the BBM bit. We disagree on likely time line of events. The second set of bangs have been pinned down to 3:17, but time of the first set is NOT precisely pinpointed. So, 20min is likely an exaggeration. I think Stipps evidence as a whole is an indication that there were only minutes between the two sets of bangs. I recall in his notes he estimated first bangs at 3:12? (Don't quote me)... so more like 5 minutes? Maybe 7 minutes between bangs?
How would that sit with blood still pulsing if shots were at say, 3:12?
 
That's about 2 feet, right? Mangena said that was the minimum distance - which is much farther than the state was claiming (I think they initially said something like 5 inches or so). When Mangena did his laser beams, he set them at the exact position Oscar said he was standing and said Oscar could have been standing there and that the trajectories fit his account.

That's really close!! The way you were talking I thought he was about 4 metres away kind of round a corner. I've been looking on line at animation versions and most I've seen have him mostly in front of the door then 2,3,4 shots have him more over to his right at an angle.
Didn't look like he was hiding from an intruder (not like they do in the movies, back up against a wall, going forward to shoot then hiding again)
 
Is OP sobbing: "She wasn't breathing," between 14:59-15:01?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7zc1JQCpzM


ETA: It occurred to me that after shooting someone, whether intentional, or with recklessness out of fear, one would not be able to hear much at all after firing four shots indoors.

In such a closed space, the sound would affect your hearing dramatically, and you would be in a terribly heightened state with rushing adrenaline. How could he tell RS wasn't breathing? I suppose the wounds may have been so terrible he knew, but it seems that he would not be able to hear breath. I suppose he could see that, though.
 
Hello everyone

I've been reading this thread since the beginning, pretty much - thank you all for your interesting and insightful comments.

However, I have specifically signed up to weigh in on the heart beating issue.

Viper, you are not correct.

Saayman only ever said that Reeva took a few breaths after the head shot - Botha said the same. He also said she would have died fairly soon after that.

Not breathing does not necessarily equal dead. I think that you have assumed it means the same thing when it does not.

Her skull fractured after the last shot meaning that the brain stem was destroyed. This is the area of the brain responsible for breathing, so she stopped.

Hearts are autonomous organs with their own electrical system. They can continue to beat for up to 6 minutes after breathing stops (depending on many factors, of course). It is highly likely that Reeva's managed to keep beating for a few minutes at least - this would not be unusual.

Blood spatter analysis is more than some man looking at spots of blood and deciding they are arterial. There is a a specific type of pattern than can only be formed by blood being pulsed out because of ventricular movement. If Van Der Nest said the spots were arterial, then they were. No amount of jiggling a body about will form the exact same pattern as arterial spurts.

What you seem to be suggesting is that two very important state witnesses are in direct contradiction - Van der Nest says her heart was beating as she was brought down the stairs while Saayman says this stopped in the toilet?! This isn't very likely.

Also, a thread or two back, someone was confusing Reeva's clenched teeth with rigor mortis. Obviously, this wasn't rigor mortis (impossible), but there is a thing called caderivic spasm where muscles stiffen at the moment of death - usually when a death has been particularly violent and emotional.

This explains Reeva clenching her teeth as witnessed by Dr Stipp - further evidence that she died at the bottom of the stairs.

For what it's worth, Jake18 and Crasshopper clearly are medical professionals and know what they are talking about - and they are right.

Reeva's head injury stopped her breathing. OP brought her out of the toilet very soon after this, and her heart was managing to beat weakly as she was brought downstairs. This stopped and she went into spasm either halfway down or at the bottom of the stairs.

The cast off spatter that Roux mentioned would be in relation to the spatters on the headboard & wall - OP mentioned that himself on the stand. At no time did Roux query the arterial spurting evidence, which he would have done if there was dispute about this.

For me, this is the evidence that will convict OP. It is impossible for him to have shot Reeva at around 3am given that her heart was still beating 20 minutes later. It's totally possible for him to have been standing on the stairs with her 5 or so minutes later with her heart feebly managing a few dying beats, though.

To reiterate, the confusion has come about because of your assumption that Saayman saying she took a few breaths meant this was when she died. It would not mean that, and this does not necessarily follow - death is often a process not a single event.

great first post. thanks for all the information. imo there should be a special place on this site for definitive information/opinion like this. it would prevent a lot of ... 'around the houses' discussion
 
intriguing...

.. yeah, I probably shouldn't have said .. I haven't really formulated anything proper on that one yet :blushing: .. I think all we can really be sure of is that the guy in the vid seems to consider it as hard evidence against OP, enough not to want to discuss it any further.
 
great first post. thanks for all the information. imo there should be a special place on this site for definitive information/opinion like this. it would prevent a lot of ... 'around the houses' discussion

.. actually, there are some threads designated for 'specifics' (things like 'The doors', etc) .. I keep forgetting they're there ..! :blushing::facepalm: .. here is one for 'The injurys' .. The Injuries - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community it might be worth the poster re-posting it in there as well, so that we can refer back to it easily.
 
I'm listening to it again - but I have to say that I can't help but liking Van Rensburg and on the whole found him to be credible. More on that after I listen to the comparison of the statements ...

Yep, he seems like the type that wouldn't want any fuss and would do things by the book. You can tell he's glad to be pursuing something different now and it was clear he was a bit emotional towards the end of his testimony.

I think it's possible he may have been slam-dunked by the PT on this one, purely because they didn't want to risk Hilton Botha on the stand.
 
I know he denied it - but he's denying doing anything intentionally. I'm saying it looks to me like he was shooting towards the person's core more or less.

And yes, IMO he was shooting to kill. I still think he believed it was an intruder, but I'm not 100% convinced

BBM - which makes him dishonest. I think the grand majority of us collectively agree that he intended to shoot whomever was behind that door. For him to completely deny that now is beyond ridiculous.

Why does somebody have to be dishonest and evasive on the stand? Because they are lying.
 
I think the point of the defense demonstration of cricket bat on door noises, and the expected demonstration of OP screaming is not likely to show that either sound is "Exactly like" a gunshot or a "woman screaming"... I am sure that a cricket bat on door is NOT exactly the same as a gunshot, and I predict that any recording of OP will NOT sound exactly like a woman (Reeva) screaming.
However, that is NOT the point of such demonstrations. It is necessary to show that the test sounds are "in the same ball park"... and IMO cricket bat sound is clearly the same sort of noise as a gunshot. Not the same, not as loud, for sure, but sufficiently like to be MISTAKEN by a witness some distance away.
That is the point. It is about what witnesses PERCEIVE and not about the sounds in an absolute sense. For instance, measurements of exact sound frequencies, db levels etc are NOT what is required. Human perception is not like an electronic instrument that measures exact data. Human perception includes predispositions to see/hear whatever at that time, and in those circumstances, as well as reference to past experiences.
IMO it misses the point to to contemplate "can OP scream like a woman"... the answer is probably "No". The point is... can OP Scream in such a way that witnesses could mistake those screams for the sound of a woman screaming. My guess is that he can. I base that guess on the small samples we have heard when he gets upset in court, but more so on the fact that the State's own evidence, especially ear witnesses (taken as a whole), have provided very strong evidence (some of it circumstantial) that the screams were AFTER Reeva was dead, and so the only likely source of those screams was OP himself.

bbm1. agree with what you are saying there. although imo this unwittingly helped the pros case.

bbm2. then we get back to this. :)
 
.. yeah, I probably shouldn't have said .. I haven't really formulated anything proper on that one yet :blushing: .. I think all we can really be sure of is that the guy in the vid seems to consider it as hard evidence against OP, enough not to want to discuss it any further.

yes i watched the video you mention. have been staring long and hard at jeans on paving slabs today ... !!
 
Only he didn't sound like a woman at all .. :facepalm: .. like many of us were saying only in the past day or so, he may well be able to change his pitch but will still always sound like a man. The 'Sandhurst' vid posted yesterday with the army major (?) screaming 'en garde' still sounded like a man, even though it was extremely high pitched.

I think more to the point is why was he screaming (blood curdling, terrified) before he shot the intruder? And then not when he discovered her??
If he's screaming how could hear whether the intruder was coming out etc.
A reasonable gun owner doesn't scream or shout at the intruder, they clear the area.
I read they shouldn't even warn the intruder they have a weapon.
Wouldn't we all hearing a noise just freeze, and LISTEN.
If he was scared, and shouting get out my house, wouldn't it be a arghhhh, Type shout. A scream comes from something that startles you, or someone chasing you about to hurt you.

He screamed at a door that he was going TOWARDS.
 
Yes, and then during his cross-examination, he said that at that point (or just a few seconds later) he "heard her breathe"
He has three versions of this. She was 'slumped over but still alive' (from affidavit)... 'she wasn't breathing' (from testimony)... 'she was struggling to breathe' (from testimony).
 
<RSBM>

Hearts are autonomous organs with their own electrical system. They can continue to beat for up to 6 minutes after breathing stops (depending on many factors, of course). It is highly likely that Reeva's managed to keep beating for a few minutes at least - this would not be unusual.

<RSBM>

For what it's worth, Jake18 and Crasshopper clearly are medical professionals and know what they are talking about - and they are right.

Reeva's head injury stopped her breathing. OP brought her out of the toilet very soon after this, and her heart was managing to beat weakly as she was brought downstairs. This stopped and she went into spasm either halfway down or at the bottom of the stairs.

<RSBM>

To reiterate, the confusion has come about because of your assumption that Saayman saying she took a few breaths meant this was when she died. It would not mean that, and this does not necessarily follow - death is often a process not a single event.

That is a huge post. I strongly disagree. First to Jake and Crasshopper being "medical professionals," that may or may not be true. Anyone can post on these boards, and some of the "professional" material and opinions that I have seen here are outrageous. Further, being a professional anything does not preclude a member from having extreme bias and tailoring their words to give more weight to their opinion. This is the Internet, and in this forum I have not seen anyone that posts without a bias. BTW, Jake and Crasshopper abandoned the bled to death and internal bleeding speculation yesterday, but it has reared it's ugly head again today.

Going to the heart 's ability to continue beating for up to 6 minutes after the brain and respiration have been stopped. At a minimum Reeva was shot at 3:16, that is when the calls started going out to security. The Standers saw OP bring Reeva downstairs at 3:25. That is 9 minutes.

Going to the absense of blood. Reeva had a severed artery in her right arm, the arm was virtually amputated. She had a perforated gunshot wound to her head, inflicted by a flowering and fragmenting hollow point bullet. And she had a devastating gunshot wound to her hip. If her heart had continued to beat for even two minutes in the WC or the bathroom there would be considerably more blood. Crasshopper noted that in a post that I replied to an hour ago, but he has changed his mind and wants to say there was 1.5 - 2 liters of blood in the bathroom; I will go with his first observations that there were not.

Finally, my "assumption" that when Dr. Saymaan said that Reeva "died within 2-3 breaths" is that he meant exactly what he said, she died! Trying to introduce brain death into a conversation about an autopsy report is a fanciful journey.

Welcome to WS!
 
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