Trial Discussion Thread #31

[Irisha]

Did the defence team actually provide a sample of OP's "screaming like a woman" as promised?

Not yet, we wait............ will it be live or memorex? music producer or Internet?

 

[jay-jay]

I bet the judge is thinking just wrap this crap up now I've heard enough. I bet she already knows what she is going to do? It was quite telling when the assessor asked if Reeva could access the remote. They're thinking well if she could then anyone would shout to her to open up the door and call the police instead of tell her to get down. They're not buying what he's trying to sell. I can imagine him thinking he can use his charm on the judge which is why he only looks at her.

BB1 - Yes, I bet she is! .. and you can just see in in her expression, too. She/the court are just having to go through all the motions though, in order to be seen to be giving OP a fair trial (and to ensure he doesn't try the old appeal malarky, and citing an unfair trial as a reason for it).

BB2 - Definitely!

 

[Viper]

If OP fired four shots from that position, on his stumps, with one hand .. how did he manage to stay in an upright position? He would've fired with his right hand (I've not heard anything to say he is left handed?) and therefore would not have been able to use his right side or the right hand wall, to support himself. A firearm like that is going to have a fair old bit of recoil.

BIB. Indeed it does! Mine is a Glock 17 but essentially the same as OPs Taurus when it comes to recoil. I would never consider trying to fire quick multiple rounds with a single handed grip on the gun! Mainly because I wouldn't be able to hit the broad side of a barn doing that! He had to have held the gun with both hands. He can stand there in the bathroom and brush his teeth on his stumps, so he can stand there in the bathroom and shoot his gun on his stumps too, without holding on to something for a few seconds: bang...bang bang bang, yup, he held the gun with both hands.

 

[minor4th]

BIB .. people can basically say anything on a messageboard and this to me now is getting to the stage of being mischievous (or 'winding up').

Not at all. It's my opinion. Don't know how that could be construed as "winding up" or mischievous.

 

[minor4th]

How did the intruder/s get in the window with no ladder? A thief stole the ladder?

There were ladders

 

[IfIMay]

LOL - ask prosecution witnesses if this is what they heard? Because they would say "no" - safer to just give the info to the judge and let her decide whether the witnesses could have been mistaken

I'm sure the Judge understands the conditions under which OP "made" his musical recording.

 

[jay-jay]

I'm still waiting for Roux to prove the head shot was first and that Reeva couldn't possibly have screamed!! He did after all promise he would be able to prove it, but then he's promised quite a few things that have quietly fallen by the wayside!

.. even Dixon agreed with the PT about the first shot being to the hip :facepalm:

 

[Feynman]

I could have been clearer. He was farther than what the prosecution first alleged, and the ballistics are consistent with OP's account that he was right at that part where the carpet meets the tile in the bathroom.

IIRC Mangena's testimony was that the shots were fired from the same location. I think OP's description of being along the right side wall and kind of shielded by the corner. It may have been 4 meters or more - I don't recall specifically, only that Mangena said the trajectories were consistent with OP being all the way back to the wall

I remember this differently. The carpet meets the tile at the beginning of the hallway leading to the bathroom. OP fired from a point further on than that. OP said he went down the left side of the hallway and fired from the entrance to the bathroom leaning back on the left wall; this makes sense as it frees up his right arm and hand for firing the gun. I remember Mangena saying the shots were fired from 60 cm to 3 m away.

 

[Irisha]

There were ladders

Where? Who moved them and when? I missed that testimony and no ladder in the photo of outside. TIA

 

[minor4th]

I'm sure the Judge understands the conditions under which OP "made" his musical recording.

No one knows yet because that information hasn't yet been presented in court.

Are you pre-judging this test and expert testimony that we haven't yet heard?

 

[minor4th]

Where? Who moved them and when? I missed that testimony and no ladder in the photo of outside. TIA

The court was also shown pictures of a stack of ladders in the yard near the downstairs lounge window.

http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/2014/03/17/the-oscar-pistorius-murder-trial-day-11

 

[Rumpole]

LOL - ask prosecution witnesses if this is what they heard? Because they would say "no" - safer to just give the info to the judge and let her decide whether the witnesses could have been mistaken

It would be impossible to set up some sort of "Audio line up" and have unbiased assessment.

For many, many reasons. One being that all the witnesses KNOW FOR SURE that any sounds recorded and played are NOT Reeva... they are committed already to having heard Reeva.....already a bias in their assessment.

What WOULD be interesting would be to record (from a distance away) a whole bunch of people taking turns in OP's toilet with door and window closed...screaming, with as much distress as they can "fake". Ask witnesses and volunteers (and Nel) to pick which sounds are male, female, blood curdling etc.

I think the results would be interesting

 

[patCee]

IIRC Stipps, Burger and Johnson all described screams. Stipps and Burger said they stopped after 2nd series of bangs heard by them. Though d Merwe only heard 4 bangs. Johnson and Dr Stipp said they heard male and female sounds together. The Stipps heard first shots at 2.58 am. Johnson last shots at 3.17 am. Burger hears shouts for help at 3am, tried to phone, heard screams then 4 shots, pause, then 3 more shots. There may be some slight variation here, the separate accounts do suggest what they heard is fairly accurate.

Its not a stretch of the imagination for the time of death to fit with Helen75's account. Though I'm not sure why she thinks this in particular will convict OP. Except that account would mean the final shot came later.

So when were the bat strikes?

 

[minor4th]

I remember this differently. The carpet meets the tile at the beginning of the hallway leading to the bathroom. OP fired from a point further on than that. OP said he went down the left side of the hallway and fired from the entrance to the bathroom leaning back on the left wall; this makes sense as it frees up his right arm and hand for firing the gun. I remember Mangena saying the shots were fired from 60 cm to 3 m away.

I could have sworn he said he was creeping along the right side of the wall - it stuck with me because it sounded really awkward and also an awkward position to shoot from.

I believe it was during x-exam when Roux asked him about the distances and the position of OP (according to his account).

 

[fox1lady]

Lawyers frequently comment that trying to read the tea leaves in the questions of deliberating jurors is a fool's game. Probably much the same here. She may have been trying to ascertain whether Reeva could have gone down for food for all we know. She could have been simply gathering a missing fact with no particular attached question. Who knows.

Or she could be wondering why Reeva didn't get out of there.... I'm sure we'll find out one day. I was just surmising btw

 

[Cherwell]

why didn't they play ole female Oscar's screams for the witnesses who heard Reeva scream and just ASK THEM? Because they didn't hear OP. (how many times over how long a period did OP try to get to the "right" tone!?)

Didn't they attempt a live reconstruction at the scene? Seems all they succeeded in doing was waking people up and pissing off Mrs Stipp. :floorlaugh:

 

[Panda]

It may be quite obscure, but OP said he knelt by Reeva's body for long moments, then picked her up....but the bloodstains on his legs don't really tell that story to me.

You can see it here I think, where there are clear, downwards blood drips from where Reeva was carried, but there don't seem to be any smudges or smears that I would expect, from someone kneeling in a bloody bathroom. It bothers me, because that 'kneeling beside Reeva' is the only explanation offered for those vital minutes before help was summoned.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ing-at-unseen-target-was-illegal-9196507.html

The vital minutes were probably spent realised what a major cluster ****** he made and probably spent the time working out a probable version of events! Could have even thought of how to stage the scene to make his version fit better ... :twocents:

 

[K.T]

ALL the witnesses who heard "a woman scream" in this case is just two married couples.. and one of those couples DID only come forward and describe what they heard AFTER seeing news reports etc for weeks. (And they were 200M away, and so unlikely to hear the nuances that they have evolved and embellished their testimony with eg "Blood Curdling")

It is not hard for me to imagine that if I heard a high pitched, anguished "scream" in the night.. I would assume it was a woman. That is the way human perception works. We make some sort of sense out of ambiguous information, based on our experiences and expectations.
It would be more precise to say the witnesses heard screams that to them sounded like a woman. But in the realm of "Reasonable doubt".. OP being the source is at the very least a reasonable alternative explanation. Add to that the fact that it is reasonable to conclude from the State's own evidence that the screams were heard AFTER the shots and so in that case it is not possible it was Reeva. It is logical to infer that it was OP screaming.

BIB Actually, Burgher's lived 177m away.

Dr Stipp heard intermingled male and female voices and insisted it was a woman screaming under cross-examination. This goes beyond a 'cultural bias.'

Stipp is a medical professional and he's probably heard through many years vastly different types of screams of pain, in varying scales of anguish, from men and women through his practice and training. If he says he heard a women's scream, I put more weight on his opinion.

If people want to talk about embellishing testimony I think it would be really interesting to compare the few statements of Burgers, Stipp's with the amazingly long list of seeming blatant lies, (Dear Glock - did you know your guns fire magically beyond physics and design! ) inconsistencies and story changes by Pistorius - throughout his testimony.

In fact I think I'll try and do a post about Pistorius lying and version changing on the stand next.

Apologies all in advance for length of next post...there are just too many.

 

[fox1lady]

That's interesting because I was thinking she was asking about the alarm and remote to determine whether Reeva could have gotten a midnight snack - and that would explain her stomach contents

Yeah I had thought of that as well. It's just that for a while I had wondered why she didn't just run or why he didn't whisper to her to deactivate the alarm and run whilst he staved off the intruders... just the way my mind works

 

[fox1lady]

I don't think it was ever the defense case that the first gunshot was to the head.

I thought at the beginning they were saying the first shot was to the head which made it impossible for Reeva to scream.