Trial Discussion Thread #32

[Nausicaa]

I still can't understand why OP was screaming so much! Shouting yes but what the heck was he screaming for, especially "all the time" like he said he was?

You've never noticed how macho men scream effeminately while preparing to fight off nocturnal invaders and at the same time whispering to their womenfolk to call the police ?

 

[BritsKate]

First, it was imperative that police investigate the entire house and grounds.

Second, I have not heard any testimony that they did. Maybe someone else heard this testimony, but they have not yet directed me to it.

Third, police have testified in court to everything they did in that house, and, like I said, I didn't hear any testimony that they searched the entire house.

Fourth, if they didn't search the entire house, why didn't they?

This would not just be sloppy police work, it would be over the top.

MOO

To be fair, we also don't know what the lead detective had for breakfast or how many traffic lights they passed on the way to the crime scene either.

This case is going to be decided on testimony relevant to the crime in question. I'm quite certain the entire house was searched (it's SOP for many jurisdictions), other areas of the house have been mentioned in testimony repeatedly, and quite obviously the police didn't just take Oscar's word for anything. It stands to reason he wouldn't be on trial now if that were the case.

JMO

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

I have been watching the trial since it began in March and have been following along here. Thanks to everyone for the insightful comments and for the robust debate. The delay in court proceedings has allowed me to do some study and to make my first post. I will probably be making some mistakes in posting. Here is what is bugging me.


I was surprised that Nel concluded his case without addressing the chaotic scene in that bathroom and water closet (WC) and what transpired there after the shooting. There are so many unasked and unanswered questions. I have become somewhat obsessed about that plank from the door which was found laying partly in and partly out of the WC. Nel questioned OP about Reeva’s position and where he found her cell phone. OP said he phone was lying where the plank was. Nel said, “and the plank?” Op said, “I don’t remember.” And that was it. I am convinced that Nel will have more to say about it.

It is my opinion that the plank could not have been in the WC before OP dragged Reeva out into the bathroom, mainly because it is lying on top of the blood trail. It sounds crazy, but I have concluded that OP must have placed it there after moving her. The dimenions of the WC are 4’ 10 1/2” X 3’ 11 1/4”. The plank is longer than the WC is wide. There is no room in that small space for Reeva, OP and the plank. I can’t think of a reasonable scenerio where that plank was knocked into the WC and then ended up on top of the blood trail with the back side up. And I can’t believe that OP could have forgottn about it. I considered that Op ripped it out and into the bathroom, then kicked it into the WC after moving Reeva, but the blood trail is not disturbed and I can’t see a likely path. I can’t figure out why he might have done this, but that is what my eye instruments are telling me.

The first photo below shows the plank as found. The side that is up is the WC facing, or back side. You can see the exit hole of bullet C, and I have pointed, with a yellow arrow, to that small protrusion which forms half of bullet hole D. The other half is in that small piece of he door which has been so much discussed as to how the cracks were made (not shown).

The second photo was taken after the plank was turned over as they processed the scene. It shows the bathroom facing, or front side of the plank.

The third photo was cropped by me to show a close up of the half of bullet hole D. Nell pointed out that there was ‘body tissue” on it. There is also, obviously, blood on it. The “kick mark” can be seen on the front side as well, above bullet hole C.

If you click through the gallery photos at the link, you can see that the blood trail is not smeared or disturbed.

I have more observations about the planks and pieces of wood in the bathroom, but this post is already long. So, have I driven myself bonkers with this? What am I missing? Maybe the police did it? If this is correct, surely it is obvious to Roux as well as the Prosecution. How can it be explained?

I am unfamiliar with the way the SA court system works as to making a case. Could this be revealed in closing argument? The evidence is in the record.
JMO

Link
http://www.hlntv.com/slideshow/2014/03/17/oscar-pistorius-crime-scene-photos-murder-trial

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:welcome6:

Excellent first post !!

 

[weeeva]

You don't have to take my word for it, of course, but in my experience (and that includes having been married to someone dx'd with personality disorders and following true crime for almost 3 decades) liars often use the truth as a basis to build lies around. You'll often see people refer to 'seeds of truth' - these are things that did really happen that a liar includes because the liar thinks it makes their account appear more plausible. For the most part, it does. It also gives the liar a 'reference point' to try to remember to incorporate certain falsehoods. For this reason, it is difficult for liars to remain consistent when relating their story out of sequence. It's the very reason Nel didn't walk OP through the events from A to B, he kept jumping around to keep OP off kilter and force him to recall from a point that hadn't been rehearsed. Liars also very often lie about the most inane, benign events (like what they had for breakfast, how much their house was, what kind of car they drive) because by human nature we believe people wouldn't bother lying about things that don't matter...then they can lie about big things with impunity because they have a track record of 'honesty' (only they don't, you just haven't caught out their small lies). You're less likely to question a bigger lie as a result.

This is all MOO and not necessarily specific to this case, it comes up again and again due to the nature of this forum.

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

Yes I agree with you, but if OP got everything right would you put that down to him having plenty of time to rehearse?

 

[homegirl]

:welcome6:

Excellent first post !!

Thanks for the welcome. The short version of my post is: How did that plank get in the doorway and over the blood trail? I'm thinking it is one of the things the police saw that morning which convinced them that OP is guilty of premeditated murder.

 

[PPKik]

Well, except for right after he had shot and killed Reeva. Then he didn't scream anymore. Guess he wasn't too horrified at what he had done because that's when any normal person would scream the most.

Didn't he run out to the balcony and scream? Scream repeatedly for help?!

ETA: Thanks so much to the mods, minor4th, and whoever else helped put together the "ear witness" thread. I was able to listen to some of Michelle Burger's testimony early this morning. It makes no sense to me at all, no matter what version of the shooting I try to follow.

Her version is a definite woman screaming before and after definite shooting, after four distinct gun shots. Not possibly OP screaming, yet she hears him (male voice, different voice) yelling for help, afterwards. What a cross Roux has given her!

 

[soozieqtips]

Thanks for the welcome. The short version of my post is: How did that plank get in the doorway and over the blood trail? I'm thinking it is one of the things the police saw that morning which convinced them that OP is guilty of premeditated murder.

Hi there homegirl and welcome welcome welcome!!!

Is that the plank OP said he was worried about falling in and hurting Reeva (or something like that) after he'd already shot her to death? That's like me running over someone in a truck... then reversing back over their head a few times, and then getting out of the truck and taking care not to step on their hand in case I hurt them!

 

[shane13]

Hi there homegirl and welcome welcome welcome!!!

Is that the plank OP said he was worried about falling in and hurting Reeva (or something like that) after he'd already shot her to death? That's like me running someone over in a truck... then reversing back over their head a few times, and then getting out of the truck and taking care not to step on their hand in case I hurt them!

In the U.S., we call that going back and forth with someone.

 

[shane13]

My idea is that she did not succeed in dialling the police but that he was not 100% sure that she didn't: hence he mentions telling her to call the police to explain any attempted call that may have occurred.

I do not exclude the possibility you evoke that some evidence is being suppressed by higher authorities - the sacking of detective Botha is disquietingly reminiscent of the Stalker affair in England - but I have been more interested in reconstructing the evening's events on the basis of the evidence we do possess.

Merci beaucoup!

 

[homegirl]

Hi there homegirl and welcome welcome welcome!!!

Is that the plank OP said he was worried about falling in and hurting Reeva (or something like that) after he'd already shot her to death? That's like me running someone over in a truck... then reversing back over their head a few times, and then getting out of the truck and taking care not to step on their hand in case I hurt them!

Thanks Suzieqtips. Yes, the very one. I wrote down what he said: "I hit a little bit to the left, I didn't want to hit the door in the middle or on the left because I thought that, if Reeva is inside, I wouldn't want to hit her. So I hit the door, then the door broke, Milady." I wrote it down because I wondered how he knew where she was in the WC.

 

[jay-jay]

Thank you. An excellent piece with a clear and concise explanation of why the murder charge against OP does not depend on whether he thought it was Reeva or not - which is something a number of FMs have put forward repeatedly.

Yes, and also this bit on circumstantial evidence is clear, too:

3. Circumstantial evidence is evidence

Oscar’s supporters often state “we’ll never know what happened that night”, “It’s between him and his God” and “who are we to judge?” as if somehow this gives him immunity from being held accountable! The fact that the only other person in the house that night is dead necessarily makes the State’s case a circumstantial one. However, circumstantial evidence should not be assumed to be weak or invalid.

Remember, criminals are convicted on circumstantial evidence every day and it can often be more reliable than direct evidence. Circumstantial evidence requires some inference or reasoning in order to prove a fact as opposed to direct evidence from an eye witness or participant for example but can be strong evidence nonetheless.

http://everyafricanwoman.com/?p=1608

 

[Apollo]

Didn't he run out to the balcony and scream. Scream repeatedly for help!

ETA: Thanks so much to the mods, minor4th, and whoever else helped put together the "ear witness" thread. I was able to listen to some of Michelle Burger's testimony early this morning. It makes no sense to me at all, no matter what version of the shooting I try to follow.

Her version is a definite woman screaming before and after definite shooting, after four distinct gun shots. Not possibly OP screaming, yet she hears him (male voice, different voice) yelling for help, afterwards. What a cross Roux has given her!

Did anyone testify that they heard someone on the balcony, that sounded like a woman, scream for help after the shooting or did he have a miraculous voice change for that.

 

[soozieqtips]

Thanks Suzieqtips. Yes, the very one. I wrote down what he said: "I hit a little bit to the left, I didn't want to hit the door in the middle or on the left because I thought that, if Reeva is inside, I wouldn't want to hit her. So I hit the door, then the door broke, Milady." I wrote it down because I wondered how he knew where she was in the WC.

BBM - Sorry homegirl - I missed that bit in your post. Guess my instruments are playing up after staring at a screen for so long! It's a weird thing to say though, "I hit a little bit to the left, I didn't want to hit the door in the middle or on the left because I thought that, if Reeva is inside, I wouldn't want to hit her" - since we know that from his perspective, 'no woman screamed at all that night' - so he can't use screaming as a way to guess where she was in the toilet. So how the hell did he know where not to hit, and more importantly, why would he even care about the plank hitting her when he'd already shot her in the head???

 

[Greater Than]

An expert witness testimony isn't evidence in itself, it's just that they are testifying to have the required knowledge, experience etc. to provide more accurate theory than a lay-person. Their specialized knowledge can then be applied to the aspects of the case by the judge or jury. In many trials the DT and PT expert witnesses often dispute each others claims.

Mr Dixon's situation was rather unusual.

Not only is expert witness testimony evidence, but ALL testimony is evidence. It's called "testimony evidence," as opposed to "physical evidence."

It's up to the judge to determine if the evidence is reliable, but testimony is absolutely a form of evidence.

 

[weeeva]

Here are screen shots from the shining and some other movie to help you visualize what happened.

First, notice how high the axe strikes the door. The bat strikes to the OP door were much lower, just above the door handle. OP was on his stumps when he hit the door.

Next notice where a terrified woman might be while the door is being bashed down.

Now think about what happened when OP stopped bashing the bathroom and went to get the gun. Reeva had no idea what was going on. She might have stood near the door to peak out, maybe to listen, maybe to open it and try to run, maybe to hold the handle in case she thought OP was going to get another key.

Finally, notice how improbable OP's story is about bending over the opening in the door to pick up the key on the floor.

Wow... just realized something.... Reeva never locked the door.

She was able to hold it closed with OP pulling on it because he was on his stumps and had no leverage.

He had to say it was locked to explain why the door was bashed in. Otherwise there's no explanation for the broken door.

Maybe that's what happened when he went back upstairs. He panicked and knew he had to explain the broken doors, and all he could think of was putting the keys in the door. He probably just screwed up and put them on the wrong side of the door. The first thing he had to do was explain why the door wasbroken. He couldn't say it was because he was beating on it.

Tee Hee Nastasya, thanks for the movie pics. Are you getting a bit carried away, comparing OP to Johnny?
Johnny's axe looks longer that OP's bat.
So you are disagreeing with both PT and DT, in that the bat came after the shots, and that OP was on his stumps when shooting, and legs when "batting". It would depend on the height of the door and where the panels were, to be accurate about how awkward it would be to reach to the floor to pick up the key. Are you changing the evidence to fit what you believe happened? Aren't we all doing that?
I am still of the frame of mind that OP was NOT running around on his stumps arguing and chasing after Reeva. He would be too insecure of his manhood to do that. That is something I feel quite confident about.

 

[james83]

Did you see those choices for Nel? Daniel Craig or Mel Gibson.

Who would you have for Roux?

Is there a Pacino role or DeNiro role here? Or are they too old now?

I guess Charlize Theron is certain for Reeva being blonde and SAn.

And who shall play everyone's favorite geologist, Dixon?

Oldwadge- James Spader.

 

[Viper]

We did not get to hear Dr. Saymaan's testimony. But Nest did reveal which two arteries were severed. The middle meningeal artery in Reeva's brain and the brachial artery in her arm.

Quote:
In its continuous work, an average heart contracts more than 100,000 times a day to force blood through the thousands of miles of blood vessels to nourish each of the trillions of cells in the body. With each contraction, the heart forces about 2.5 ounces (74 milliliters) of blood into the bloodstream. At an average adult heart rate of 72 beats per minute, this equals about 1.4 gallons (5.3 liters) of blood every minute, 84 gallons (318 liters) every hour, and 2,016 gallons (7,631 liters) every day. With exercise, this amount may be increased by as much as five times.

Read more: http://www.faqs.org/health/Body-by-...ovascular-system-functions.html#ixzz2zvmyMb2o

Nest refered to the blood in the WC as a "blood pool" created from "heavy" bleeding out of Reeva's severed artery in her right arm. He also noted "heavy bleeding" in to the toilet. Nest refered to the blood on the bathroom floor and the downstairs floor as "blood staining" and he associated them with the large volume of blood in Reeva's blood soaked hair and clothes.

 

[whiterum]

Thanks for the welcome. The short version of my post is: How did that plank get in the doorway and over the blood trail? I'm thinking it is one of the things the police saw that morning which convinced them that OP is guilty of premeditated murder.

I see what you saying homegirl, that door panel that was supposedly beaten in is over the blood drag marks where he dragged RS out of the toilet closet. It could not have been there when he dragged her out but placed in that position afterwards.

If he lifted it out in order to get room to drag Reeva out then why put it back on the toilet room floor.

 

[minor4th]

That incident is one of many times OP showed total indifference to the feelings of others. That he volunteered that story out of the blue to a reporter says something important about him.

I would definitely take that story with a grain of salt - it's a third hand account for one thing, and the alleged journalist who was told this by Oscar has not come forward to either confirm or deny this was said to him

 

[minor4th]

This has just been posted by Barry Bateman. Article from Every African women.
http://everyafricanwoman.com/?p=1608

Just to give proper credit to the author - it was written by Sani Dowa. In case your post is misinsterpreted as Bary Bateman being the author.