Trial Discussion Thread #32

[homegirl]

BBM - Sorry homegirl - I missed that bit in your post. Guess my instruments are playing up after staring at a screen for so long! It's a weird thing to say though, "I hit a little bit to the left, I didn't want to hit the door in the middle or on the left because I thought that, if Reeva is inside, I wouldn't want to hit her" - since we know that from his perspective, 'no woman screamed at all that night' - so he can't use screaming as a way to guess where she was in the toilet. So how the hell did he know where not to hit, and more importantly, why would he even care about the plank hitting her when he'd already shot her in the head???

It is probably me mixing you up. That quote wasn't in my first post. But yeah, exactly, how did he know. An Oscar oopsy I guess.

 

[weeeva]

The broken bedroom door was most definitely brought into evidence.

OP testified he broke through it on his way back upstairs even though the one side was already open.

Still believe him?

Are you sure? I honestly can't remember that piece of testimony. I really must be going senile. I will go back and try to find it.

 

[nastasya]

Before people go off...

Realize the immense upper body strength of OP--a supreme athlete.

Also what is now being discussed goes against Oscar being pissed likely because Reeva did lock herself in the loo, causing him to yell for her to "get the **** outa my house."

ETA: And take the actions many of us think he did with the bat.
Prob. early on.

mOO

His upper body strength is worthless without legs to stand on for leverage.

 

[PPKik]

Did anyone testify that they heard someone on the balcony, that sounded like a woman, scream for help after the shooting or did he have a miraculous voice change for that.

I don't think Michelle Burger testified he was on the balcony (she could not have known where the male voice was), only that she claimed she heard a man's voice screaming for help.

A lot of her testimony didn't make much sense to me. I was only reporting on what I listened to last night, because I hadn't been able to listen to any of the ear witnesses testify before.

I look forward to listening to the rest of the ear witnesses. From what I heard from MB, if she is any indication of the unreliability of "ear witnesses," this case will not be determined by those "ear witness" reports, but by OP's actions themselves, and maybe some of the forensic evidence, if it clearly was not tampered with (like the changed-around objects in the photos show; they prove that fans and the gun, at least, were moved).

 

[shane13]

His upper body strength is worthless without legs to stand on for leverage.

He has partial legs and stumps.
And again his own autobio states what speed and balance and strength he has/had on his stumps.

 

[steveml]

2:23 on tape, Witness Michelle Burgher

There were four gunshots. And, then I heard her petrified screaming some time during the gunshots. And, just after the gunshots was the last that I heard the same woman's voice, the same woman's voice that woke me that evening.

Oscar Neighbour Heard 'Blood-Curdling Screams' - YouTube


I am 99 percent certain Mrs. Burgher did not hear Reeva scream during the gunshots, and 100 percent certain she didn't hear Reeva scream after the gunshots.

Therefore, she was hearing Oscar's screams, and the bat strikes. She slept through the gunshots.

MOO

I'm not much further behind.

Having watched her testimony a few times, There's hardly a doubt in my mind that she prejudged OP after hearing media reports, prior to making a statement. It was suggested that Ms Berger's statement was made about a fortnight after the shooting, however during the testimony Roux mentions it was about a month later.

In Ms Burgers statement to Capt. Van Aardt she mentions nothing of blood-curdling screams, all she tells him is that 'I heard the woman scream, and then shots'. The other additions to the statement are only introduced in the court session.

Ms Burger also claims that she heard OP shout for help before the shots. Why would he do this? If people can't buy into the theory that OP may have sounded like a woman, why should we then buy into a theory that OP mocked Reeva by shouting for help. It's unlikely he would have mocked calling for help, and it's highly unlikely that he would have shouted it at the top of his voice so he could be heard 177 metres away.

In her testimony Ms Burger also claimed that she heard a woman screaming during the 4 gunshots. How can it be that she heard a voice above gunshots? At the time, Reeva was inside a toilet, behind a heavy locked wooden door, with no toilet window open, inside another house which was 177 metres away. The gun was fired next to an open window. We need to also remember that Ms Burger wasn't even on the balcony when she allegedly heard this, she was in bed.

I think Ms Burger did hear 4 bangs that morning. I also believe that the voices she heard were shouts not screams, and these were the shouts of OP. What cannot be mistaken from her testimony is that Ms Burger constantly says the word 'shout' and then quickly corrects it with the word 'scream'. This happens repeatedly - I lost count how many times.

I think most of Ms Berger's testimony is correct regarding the times of the events, but I think she has made up her own mind that OP is guilty, and is substituting shouts for screams.

I don't know the whys and wherefores as to why she should want to do this this, but I can only say it as I see it. It appears she is so sure that OP is guilty that she will not be swayed from her belief, even if the facts show that she cannot be correct.

 

[nastasya]

Nastasya is the immediate source of the statement that the bedroom door was broken down. I can't remember the exact description but it was certainly seriously damaged. There is no mistake for the toilet door. OP claims he damaged the bedroom door after killing Reeva IIRC. So you can take it that it was before.

The bedroom doors are double doors. One door was open. The other door was broken through as indicated by the damage to the bottom of the door where the lock bolted to the floor.

The bedroom doors also had damage around the locks, on the edges of the doors.

OP testified that he went downstairs, opened the front door, then came back upstairs and realized that he would need to have both bedroom doors open. The one door was stuck due to humidity or some stupid excuse, so he barged through it with his shoulder.

Yes, if you say "WTF?" to that you won't be alone.

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

Did you see those choices for Nel? Daniel Craig or Mel Gibson.

Who would you have for Roux?

Is there a Pacino role or DeNiro role here? Or are they too old now?

I guess Charlize Theron is certain for Reeva being blonde and SAn.

And who shall play everyone's favorite geologist, Dixon?

My fav for Roux would be Gene Hackman..lol

 

[weeeva]

He was in the middle of planning on covering up the crime and getting rid of her body when Stipp caught him. He hadn't called an ambulance or police.

He had to come up with the story he was taking her to the hospital. Notice how he didn't remember what he said when he called Netcare. He probably called, then changed his mind, maybe trying to cover both bases. Same with the call to Baba. He called just to have it on record in case he needed it, but didn't ask for help.

Nastasya, if OP was in the throws of covering up his crime, why would he walk downstairs with Reeva's blood dripping all over the place? Now if you are using movies to explain your argument, then I will use another grisly movie for same.
A certain Mr. Bates did his covering up in the bathroom where the crime took place. He wrapped her in a shower curtain and cleaned up with a mop and bucket IIRC.

 

[james83]

Barry Bateman ‏@barrybateman 16 secs
@kubeshniee a significant point was for defence to show bat strike/gunshot similarity. Dixon’s tests cannot be accepted.

https://twitter.com/barrybateman

 

[steveml]

Not only is expert witness testimony evidence, but ALL testimony is evidence. It's called "testimony evidence," as opposed to "physical evidence."

It's up to the judge to determine if the evidence is reliable, but testimony is absolutely a form of evidence.

You're quite right. I think my fingers were moving faster than my brain there.

My apologies.

 

[james83]

Barry Bateman ‏@barrybateman 38 mins
@kubeshniee I disagree. Even on the accused version, four shots blindly through the door is problematic. His explanation is vague.
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Barry Bateman ‏@barrybateman 35 mins
@kubeshniee we still need to fully understand the defence. I asked counsel for clarity - they wouldn’t say.

 

[minor4th]

My fav for Roux would be Gene Hackman..lol

Perfect ...

 

[Ncl1968]

Oldwadge- James Spader.

Dixon = Mr Bean

 

[jay-jay]

Hi there homegirl and welcome welcome welcome!!!

Is that the plank OP said he was worried about falling in and hurting Reeva (or something like that) after he'd already shot her to death? That's like me running over someone in a truck... then reversing back over their head a few times, and then getting out of the truck and taking care not to step on their hand in case I hurt them!

I was just about to say exactly the same thing! .. and it does seem even more odd, therefore, that that plank is on the inside after OP went to such pains to tell us how 'careful' he had been about it all, doesn't it ..

 

[shane13]

My fav for Roux would be Gene Hackman..lol

good one, but retired, last I read

 

[BritsKate]

Yes I agree with you, but if OP got everything right would you put that down to him having plenty of time to rehearse?

Not necessarily. If he got everything right, it could be either he's being truthful or he's rehearsed. For me, here's the difference:

Under direct, OP didn't have several pauses before answering unemotional rather benign questions. He didn't suffer from frequent memory lapses. He was what I would consider 'appropriately' emotional. And Roux, of course, questioned him mostly according to the sequence of events in order.

Under cross (and I am allowing for cross to be highly stressful), OP had several emotional breakdowns. He had great difficulty recalling events of great import but continued to correct Nel on insignificant details. He evaded many questions instead of providing a direct answer. He clarified many questions before proceeding to answer them despite those questions being very straightforward. Nel, of course, jumped around from pillar to post in his questioning and as a result, OP changed details, added others, suffered those memory lapses, evaded, paused before answering and had emotional breakdowns at questions that should not have elicited such a responce.

Had his account remained exactly the same, I'd come to the conclusion he was likely mostly truthful but the stress of cross was getting to him - and perhaps may have believed the enormity of his actions were weighing on him. His account obviously changed though - sometimes, even mid-sentence! On top of that, much of his testimony was very illogical (like the whole duvet debacle) which lends credence to him having to 'make it up as he goes along' because certain details apart the main narrative hadn't been rehearsed. Had he been truthful, it's not my belief, that would even have been necessary.

JMO

 

[shane13]

Barry Bateman ‏@barrybateman 16 secs
@kubeshniee a significant point was for defence to show bat strike/gunshot similarity. Dixon’s tests cannot be accepted.

J:
Did you catch my post of a few days ago of the SA forensics expert who said gunshot is 1000X louder than bat strike?

 

[nastasya]

Tee Hee Nastasya, thanks for the movie pics. Are you getting a bit carried away, comparing OP to Johnny?
Johnny's axe looks longer that OP's bat.
So you are disagreeing with both PT and DT, in that the bat came after the shots, and that OP was on his stumps when shooting, and legs when "batting". It would depend on the height of the door and where the panels were, to be accurate about how awkward it would be to reach to the floor to pick up the key. Are you changing the evidence to fit what you believe happened? Aren't we all doing that?
I am still of the frame of mind that OP was NOT running around on his stumps arguing and chasing after Reeva. He would be too insecure of his manhood to do that. That is something I feel quite confident about.

Yes, it's an unfair comparison to make between Jack Nicholson in The Shining and OP.

OP actually killed Reeva in the bathroom. Johnny's wife lived.

Have you not followed the discussion about the bat and the door?

The testimony was that the broken piece from the door came after the bullet hole. OP testifies that he broke out the piece of door after the shooting as well.

You don't need an expert to tell you that bat hits to the door that didn't affect the bullet holes can't be determined to have come first or second. What did affect the bullet holes was the breaking of the wooden panel.

The door was broken by the bat, then the panels were pulled out.

The insistence that the PT claims the bat hits came after the bullet holes is false. Everybody realizes that.

 

[james83]

J:
Did you catch my post of a few days ago of the SA forensics expert who said gunshot is 1000X louder than bat strike?

Yes that was a great read, confirms how unlogical it is that so many people did not hear/slept through gunshot's as O.P's version suggest's.