Trial Discussion Thread #34 - 14.05.06 Day 27

[Gbtaketwo]

Yes, I forgot about those 3-4 mins fast. But still only 2 mins to check everything and have an argument, look out of the balcony (I think he said that), peer through the blinds, etc. so yes, I think he could fit it in being quick.

That's what I am thinking . I have made this point on an earlier thread but I have regularly been surprised what I can do when I have popped something in the microwave for only 2 mins. Sometimes I get back to it think it will have finished and still have to wait 30/40 seconds.
If they could hear crying they would have had to hear the second set of noises which would have been louder than crying even if it was only the cricket bat .
Will take time to go through both N's testimony again in case I have missed something

 

[MeeBee]

There are quite a few of us that think CH. I have read as much as I can find on SA law and IMO it seems the most likely but then it could be murder even if Masipa found he shot without reasonable cause or in reasonable response at a burglar.

Based on what I've read, yes it could be either, depending on how hard Masipa thinks she needs to be on OP. I'm really not sure how this will go. SA is so different.

 

[Trooper]

I have done that and that's why I know what I'm saying is true.

And, no offense intended, but you yourself have demonstrated a lack of understanding of what you've read and the law itself in the past, way back when we were discussing the SA constitution. So I'm reluctant to believe you've got it all figured out when I don't. Even lawyers in SA have different interpretations and opinions of the outcome of this trial based around the same SA law. It's not difficult to understand.

as I said,, its pointless discussing this with you.

 

[james83]

Perhaps she has no other way. Perhaps she's single and has no family around to help. I understand this trial is very important so people out there, but witness' lives don't stop up until they testify. She's only supposed to testify for a day. A lot of assumptions are being made about someone we don't even know.

No she has a husband, Roux mentioned him whilst leading Oscar on the stand.

 

[Viper]

Yes, I mean regarding to applying the law after deciding whose version she accepts. If the law were so straightforward she wouldn't have one to make after that.

Masipa seems eager to see this thing come to an end by next Tuesday. That does not reflect well on Roux's defense that he is currently presenting. Where are the witnesses that heard OP screaming like a girl for 15 minutes? And the pathologist that says Reeva was alive all of that time? And the ballistics expert that says the first bullet went to her brain so she could not have screamed? Is this the best that the DT can muster? Oh please tell me it isn't so.

 

[sleuth-d-]

Perhaps she has no other way. Perhaps she's single and has no family around to help. I understand this trial is very important so people out there, but witness' lives don't stop up until they testify. She's only supposed to testify for a day. A lot of assumptions are being made about someone we don't even know.

fact:
she lives next door to pistorius in an exclusive, wealthy, gated community.
assumption:
she can afford a baby sitter for a couple of hours.

 

[Apollo]

I'm less clear re Mrs S and don't have her hearing the help x 3, would need to check her evidence at some later time.

I quickly looked though the transcript of her testimony while we wait for Roux to get his witness to the courthouse (g-r-r-r-r-r) and I can't see that she testified to hearing 'help' x3 at any point.

 

[lithgow1]

The running meme is that if Masipa finds OP's version as true then she will give him murder. Case closed. That is simply not true. She will have to decide if OP behaved as a reasonable person then at that point decide his level culpability and either give him murder, CH, or an acquittal. If she finds his version. She has a law to abide by, of course, but she also needs to use her own subjective reasoning. Not really that hard to understand...

So let's play M'lady. Do you think he acted as a 'reasonable person'.

I don't, not in the least, not in any of the events up to and even beyond the shooting.

 

[MeeBee]

as I said,, its pointless discussing this with you.

Likewise.

 

[Trooper]

it didn't seem to me that Oscars defence witnesses,, the Standars,, the N's.. were of any use to him, really. they testified as to what happened after Reeva's death. clearly , N's were involved after her death.. Standar, also. so in a way, they were somewhat meaningless in advancing Oscars case any further forward.

how odd that they have never spoken to Oscar since that day.

 

[Freya1977]

Think I need to use the break to mull things over.
I am quite confused by the neighbours testimony.
If they woke up to a single bang and were then alert enough to hear someone crying out I can't see any reason why at least Mrs N wouldn't have heard the second set of bangs .
I am therefore leaning towards them having woken to the second set of bangs and slept through the bulk of the shooting itself.

More like they slept through the cricket bat hits and then woke from the shots. Makes a lot more sense and I think that's exactly what Nell was getting at in his cross.

 

[MeeBee]

So let's play M'lady. Do you think he acted as a 'reasonable person'.

I don't, not in the least, not in any of the events up to and even beyond the shooting.

Well, I'm the case she may consider that he was on his stumps, was vulnerable, had a sort of PTSD from previous incidents, etc. that's why I say it will be a bit subjective. She can reject that stuff or consider it.

 

[Trooper]

Masipa seems eager to see this thing come to an end by next Tuesday. That does not reflect well on Roux's defense that he is currently presenting. Where are the witnesses that heard OP screaming like a girl for 15 minutes? And the pathologist that says Reeva was alive all of that time? And the ballistics expert that says the first bullet went to her brain so she could not have screamed? Is this the best that the DT can muster? Oh please tell me it isn't so.

it is rather worrying, Vipe.. and the sound recording, etc.. I mean.. here we are, a nieghbor, never heard a woman screaming. ( or Oscar sounding like a woman ) . neither Mr nor Mrs N was in any doubt as to the gender of who they heard.. kind of sinks Oscars claim 40 fathoms down. I don't see how Roux can resurrect this fable of the man screaming like a woman in any objective way..

 

[Viper]

Well, I'm the case she may consider that he was on his stumps, was vulnerable, had a sort of PTSD from previous incidents, etc. that's why I say it will be a bit subjective. She can reject that stuff or consider it.

So she will give him 25 years instead of life because he is an amputee? Hmm... I don't think so. :no:

 

[Gbtaketwo]

All logic suggests
Van Der Merwe heard 2nd sounds(4 bangs, silence,crying)
Carice Stander heard 2nd sounds(Only heard a man shout helpx3)
The nhglenthwa's heard 2nd sound's( heard man crying)

Still IMO the only people who heard the first sound's happened to be right opposite Oscar's bathroom.

Agreed
Which is exactly as you would expect . The Stipp's really were the only people that had nothing between them and where the shooting occurred in Op's bathroom
Their balcony windows were open the whole time and Mrs stipp's was awake to hear everything .
This is why the defence have tried so hard to discredit them .

 

[BritsKate]

The running meme is that if Masipa finds OP's version as true then she will give him murder. Case closed. That is simply not true. She will have to decide if OP behaved as a reasonable person then at that point decide his level culpability and either give him murder, CH, or an acquittal. If she finds his version. She has a law to abide by, of course, but she also needs to use her own subjective reasoning. Not really that hard to understand...

If she finds OP's version true, she will give him murder? What?

Murder requires intent. Even if Oscar intended to kill an intruder it doesn't automatically mean he committed murder because the law allows someone to kill in order to save their own life. This is where Oscar's defence comes into play. If Masipa finds he did intend to kill Reeva, it's murder, dolus directus. If Masipa finds he did intend to kill an intruder, it's murder but the necessary intent can be absolved IF she believes Oscar's claim of putative self-defence, which means he will be acquitted of the murder charge. And of course, if he is acquitted of murder, he could still be convicted of CH.

There is some question here though as SA law explicitly states a putative self-defence claim cannot be used if an intruder is killed by the defendant while in the midst of fleeing. Considering Oscar shot into a closed door immediately after screaming at the 'intruder' to get out, it's possible his self-defence claim will be nullified as a result - we just don't know since this is the first case in SA in which a defendant did not have interaction with a perceived aggressor.

 

[MeeBee]

So she will give him 25 years instead of life because he is an amputee? Hmm... I don't think so. :no:

Not what I said...

She has factors to weigh. Him being without his legs and feeling vulnerable is one of them.

 

[james83]

More like they slept through the cricket bat hits and then woke from the shots. Makes a lot more sense and I think that's exactly what Nell was getting at in his cross.

The fact is for Oscar's story to be true, out of the all the witness's we've heard from the Stipps have to be the only one's who actually heard gunshot's. LOL.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

More like they slept through the cricket bat hits and then woke from the shots. Makes a lot more sense and I think that's exactly what Nell was getting at in his cross.

Agreed And think that is where I am at the moment.
As I see it they have just been witnesses to the aftermath of the shooting.

 

[ColonelMustard]

Could be the way sound travels. Bedrooms and their balconies of both houses face the back of the houses and I thought the bathroom of OP's faced the front of the house, doesn't it? If so then since Mrs N never left her bedroom I could understand her not hearing them...

I'd never have believed it until it happened to me. I live downtown on a block of brick houses, each about 6' from the other. I don't like AC; love the love the sounds of birds and smell of freshly mowed grass too much.

About 3 years ago, I began to hear what I thought was a soft beeping noise, about every 45 seconds. Sometimes I could hear it outside, sometimes I couldn't. Then it would come back. It drove me NUTS!!!

I stood in the front of my house, didn't hear it day or night. Nor in the back of my house. Just in my room, which faces the house next door ( a sidewalk runs between them.)

As time went by I got more and more agitated. It was like water dripping, non-stop, in the same place on my skin. Drip drip drip drip drip. When fall came, I shut my windows and I couldn't hear it. But when I opened the windows the next spring, there it was AGAIN!! ( Flashback: I had been dragging my sons down stairs, from the very beginning, asking them if they heard it - unlike OP who never checks in with anyone!)

I was really crazed by now, literally on the edge of madness. I went out to the alley behind the houses, up and down the block and back the other way to the end of it - ALWAYS still hearing that sounds... sometimes. How could I NOT find it?? Finally, I started checking other block and wouldn't you know, I FINALLY found that sucker -- someone's battery had gone low on their smoke detector on their back porch, began it's warning beeps and they just let it beep and beep. They never changed the battery out.

How it beeped for 12 months, I'll never know. But I knocked on that door, seeing red rats, and tried to stay calm as I asked the women ( plural) who lived there whether they could put a new battery in - PLEASE. AND, why hadn't they heard it? Why had it not bothered them?? They just stood there looking clueless about the whole thing.

I was glad I found it and it STOPPED but I was INCREDULOUS that no one but me heard that darn sound ALL that time.

Admittedly, however, I AM the one who mumbles. I probably have "dog ears," too.

But THAT's when I learned just how clever an adversary that sound can be!!