Trial Discussion Thread #36 - 14.05.09 Day 29

[JudgeJudi]

I'm having trouble doing double quotes. Can someone help please.

 

[lithgow1]

BBM

That 'uncle' thing was very interesting because Stander quoted OP as calling him OOm, or uncle, when he called that morning to ask him to hurry over. And some said that meant they were close, and others here said it didnt mean anything to be called that. But looks like Woolie did take it as some kind of compliment.

Yes I'd say it's just a sign of respect and/or affection and its depth could vary quite a bit depending on the people involved.

With this ballistics evidence it will be interesting to see how Monday's cross goes. At this stage I feel the prosecution have the upper hand in terms of the more forensic based evidence. I was nervous of the defence case before they started, thinking they'd have a long line of experts with well prepared, precise, well-honed testimony to present - all nicely typed you might say. But I also had some faith that if the state's case was soundly based on what actually happened then all the experts in the world might find it hard to explain that away and essentially it seems that's what's happening. I want them to get to what photos from the morning will be accepted by the court. Does anyone know - how will the defence go about challenging that those early bedroom photos are not representative of how it looked on that morning? It would seem essential they do that or OP truly will be entangled in his duvet.

 

[Chelly]

W: Milady, unfortunately you can't see. I'm in the toilet now...

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

 

[MsMarple]

I read somewhere that OP's grafts/pads at the bottom of his stumps, have dislodged or something as he has got older and that he needs an operation to fix them.

That appears to be correct.

https://za.news.yahoo.com/oscar-no-balance-stumps-110607055.html

Murder-accused Oscar Pistorius on Monday told the North Gauteng High Court that he had no balance on his stumps, and could not stand still because it threw his weight off completely.
...

The paralympian added that there was a difference between his right and left stumps. He told the court that when his legs were amputated, the doctors removed the heel pad from the feet and placed them on the bottom of his stumps.
Pistorius said that as he got older the bone below the knee grew, causing the heel pad to rotate as the bone grew on the back. He said it was worse on the left side, so much so that he considered surgery.
Pistorius also said his right stump was 1cm longer than his left stump, adding to his imbalance.

I also remember reading elsewhere that he said his Jack Russell terrier could easily knock him over. Imagining him hopping up onto the bed to look for Reeva then jumping down and feeling around the floor and curtains while keeping his gun pointed at the hallway leaves me scratching my head...

 

[lithgow1]

Does anyone know anything about this issue of the crickets in the background during the outdoor gun and bat sound tests, where the prosecution are claiming (or moving towards claimimg) that the insects are louder in the bat test, suggesting it's been amplified? Any entomologists or music producers here? If all I hear is crickets I'll take it that's a no.

Was just relistening to the judge's reaction to the social worker's evidence:

'I'm dumbfounded, I'm confounded and I'm bemused, in fact gobsmacked'.

 

[UndiscoveredTruth]

I'm having trouble doing double quotes. Can someone help please.

Hi Judgejudi,

Click onto the multi-quote feature (next to the quote feature), it will turn orange. Scroll down to the next post you want to quote, then click onto the quote feature only, just like you normally do when quoting a post. The reply box will appear with the two posts you quoted. Good luck.

 

[crasshopper]

Just found this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFM3d6sA-SY

Addicted to Judge Greenland. He just might need a facebook fan page of his own.

 

[crasshopper]

Does anyone know anything about this issue of the crickets in the background during the outdoor gun and bat sound tests, where the prosecution are claiming (or moving towards claimimg) that the insects are louder in the bat test, suggesting it's been amplified? Any entomologists or music producers here? If all I hear is crickets I'll take it that's a no.

Was just relistening to the judge's reaction to the social worker's evidence:

'I'm dumbfounded, I'm confounded and I'm bemused, in fact gobsmacked'.

That was priceless!

 

[crasshopper]

That appears to be correct.

https://za.news.yahoo.com/oscar-no-balance-stumps-110607055.html



rbsm.

That was my recollection too!

I also wonder about the force of recoil with each shot and questioned whether the 'accuracy' of the four shots might support his being on prosthetics....but then I discounted that thought

 

[crasshopper]

Just watched Oscar Trial on channel 199, The round table hosted by David O'sullivan. IMO Judge Greenland's comment in Round Table No: 11 could be applied to Wolly's evidence yesterday.

'Round Table' is 1000% better than any commentary I've heard on US TV.

Many, many thanks to you & Lithgow.

 

[JudgeJudi]

This afternoon one of the American journalists mentioned that a jury would not like Nel's abrasive manner. They would prefer Roux. I want to know what you think? (I don't want to pressure you, but you've been very kind and I hoped that you wouldn't mind me asking?)

This is a highly unusual case and I think it required, and got, two of the very best criminal advocates in SA. I feel sorry for both Nel and Roux. Even though Nel is known as “the bulldog”, I’d be surprised if he’s ever come across someone like OP before. The discrepancy between OP’s bail and plea statements was only a taste of things to come. OP’s testimony was beyond belief, something no-one foresaw, including his own defence team. I think this is the very reason why Nel has been aggressive to the point of calling OP a liar when he knows the court won’t permit this. His style has been lambasted by many but I believe it was the only way of getting to where we are now. I think he’s done a brilliant job so far and won’t be perturbed in the slightest by any criticism.

Roux’ style was the polar opposite. Being around the legal system my whole life, it’s the style we’re used to in Australia and it’s exactly the same in the UK - very prim and proper without the theatrical style of Nel. Roux was just grinding and grinding away, particularly with the critically important ear witnesses. He was just as aggressive but in a totally different way. Can you imagine spending an entire year building your case up only to find your client throws all that hard work away. Unlike a civil trial where evidence is judged on the balance of probabilities, the standard of proof in criminal trials is much, much higher – beyond reasonable doubt, but you can have some doubt. The phrase lawyer always use is “it’s better to let three guilty men go free than send an innocent man to jail”.

Personally speaking Roux drove me to distraction, but I love every minute when Nel’s on his feet. In fact I’d pay to go to court and listen to him.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Like this?

(link)

Simply brilliant and one of the funniest things I've read.

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

 

[Greater Than]

Why doesn't Nel move on? I don't really think this bit of the argument is necessary.

Because the other day Roux requested that Nel ask future witnesses more questions "to save him from these embarrassing situations" of not having his next witness in court ready to be called. :giggle:

 

[ColonelMustard]

This afternoon one of the American journalists mentioned that a jury would not like Nel's abrasive manner. They would prefer Roux. I want to know what you think? (I don't want to pressure you, but you've been very kind and I hoped that you wouldn't mind me asking?)

My only qualification in answering here is that I'm an American.

Hmmmm, if I were sitting on a jury...

Well, let me just say that Roux doesn't resonate with me. He seems effete. He strikes me as wimpy, a little Caspar Milquetoast-ish, and he looks just like my Great Aunt. It's a baaaad combination.

I imagine (from out out of nowhere, mind you) that Roux comes from a rich family background, attended private schools, and has benefited from family connections all his life.

For all those reasons, none of which are meaningful OR logical - OR accurate! - I didn't like him right off the bat.

Nel, I respect. He's direct, he's honest, he's gritty, he's damn smart, he's down to earth, and he's probably charming. He strikes me as man's man, a ladies man, he teaches little kids, and he probably helps little old M'Ladys across the street, too. It's a greeaat combination.

I imagine (from out out of nowhere, mind you) that Nel comes from a working class family, attended public schools, and has worked hard for everything he's gotten.

For all those reasons, none of which are meaningful OR logical - OR accurate! - I liked him right off the bat.

All things considered, I'd also like to think / hope that I could focus on the evidence. But, I'll admit, every time Roux spoke I'd sit there wanting to rip my hair out -- just like I do now. Ha!

 

[Greater Than]

Looks like I left my computer on all night :/

Anyhow I will answer a few questions posed to me from the other thread and then I am off for the day.
I don’t think we can say that we need video proof that Kim is a liar to reasonably be able to question the validity of her claim. I don’t know if Oscar said anything, I don’t know if he did say something he was not talking to himself. I think regardless of what happened if Oscar leaned in toward her Kim would have had a visceral reaction, she by all accounts believes Oscar hunted down Reeva.

Hi Lithow1, as to my defense of Oscar’s mistaken intruder story possibly being true it is not based in emotion but in the evidence presented and in Oscar’s consistently sticking to his story in spite of the extreme tactics used by Nel and Oscar’s obvious emotional immaturity. It is also much more natural to have an emotional response of support for the victim so it would be unusual to be basing my conclusions on emotion in this case in favor of the living breathing, handsome millionaire, who shot his girlfriend to death as opposed to Reeva whose life was cut short at Oscar’s hand.

And I was asked this

Just a quick question if I may - do you believe, based on what you've read or heard, that OP said something to her? Doesn't matter what, just that he leaned in and appeared to say something that caused her to react? Thanks.

I don’t know. I think Oscar has been vilified to the point that his every movement and word is scrutinized to the tenth degree and that people find guilt and fault in almost everything he does and says.


And I am running late, have a good day folks.

BIB - OP's testimony on direct examination favors him - it's his version. The purpose of cross examination is to pick apart his testimony to emphasize the weaknesses of his version which in turn support of state's version. Nel is just doing his job.

You may not like it, but Nel uses a style (pit bull) that he thinks will best produce the most effective results. If a question is improper, Roux will object and milady will rule. I'm not sure you understand that during cross Nel doesn't just simply ask questions, he elicits testimony with leading questions. And although you do not like it and for some reason equate it to some kind of manipulation technique to obtain a false confession, it is completely proper practice.

Your disdain for Nel shines through in your posts, and I just can't help but wonder if that is blurring your ability to objectively look at the facts of the case. MOO

 

[JudgeJudi]

Me too, if I see one I edit it but often the edit option has disappeared before it registers. lol

I have a quirky thing happen to me all the time. Often when I click on the Thanks button I get a yellow triangle coming up with "Message from webpage" inside it and the Thanks won't register. The only way around it is for me to go forward or backward a page and the Thanks is there again. It drives me nuts.

 

[ColonelMustard]

Hmm. Blatant incompetence is not noticing there was a bullet staring up at you from the toilet.

It's a good job Woolie had his wits about him otherwise they'd all be trying to resolve a fatal shooting consisting of four shots fired with only 3 bullets.

Wasn't the toilet full of dark blood?

 

[ColonelMustard]

As a side thought, it will be interesting won't it when this is over and all the pundits etc are able to speak freely. At the moment they have to be very guarded in what they say.

Re all this expert testimony, whoever said earlier that the difference in quality stems from it being more difficult to defend a lie summed it up for me. It's the quality of the evidence as much as the quality of the experts that is putting the defence on the ropes. And even allowing that, Dixon was mostly a dud and I was very surprised that Wolmerans was so disorganised - thought he'd be spot on with reports and all that if only because the hapless Mr Dixon got so hammered on that score. With the exception of a few things here and there the expert defence has been as weak and all over the place as Pistorius' stories - I wonder why that is.

I'd like to think so. I figure they'll already be off to next "big" thing.

 

[ColonelMustard]

Oxygen

Defibrillator




*sorry!* :blushing:

Nothing to be sorry about, you're probably spot on. Moreover, it's hilarious.

 

[JudgeJudi]

<respectfully snipped>

Interestingly, I also came across this piece of information that I did not know but it goes someway for me in explaining why "Oldbu**er" is so pompous. He has come good, but late, from quite ordinary beginnings and looks as though it has gone to his head. He seems to have a need to give an air of superiority. Something we don't see in Roux and Nel.

"Roux’s junior advocate is Kenny Oldwage who was admitted to the Johannesburg Bar in 2002, prior to that he was a police officer."

http://www.courtchatter.com/p/oscar-pistorius-players.html

MOO

My guess is nouveau riche. However, some of our very best barristers (advocates) have similarly come from extremely humble beginnings, even going on to become judges. Police officers admitted to the Bar in NSW, Oz, can be looked down on by some. The old school tie is still very much alive and well.