Trial Discussion Thread #47 - 14.07.8, Day 38

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  • #381
Soooo, I just finished watching the Nel/Derman cross, again, for about the 5th time. I can't help laughing out loud at the complete absurdity of so much of it. It's a fiasco of communication that defies intelligent thought, a comedy of errors.

The first time I watched this, I was doing something else at the same time (maybe posting here!). At that time, I thought Nel was confused. On all subsequent (gotta watch that word!) viewings, I realized it was Derman. This evening, it dawned on me that, once things became confused, Nel milked it for all it was worth. If can't discredit a witness, confuse them into apparent idiocy.

It was clear, pretty early on (because Derman clearly said it at least 3 times), that he was discussing, "Lady, I ran" with no time or location constraints. Nel had to have heard that and understood it - Nel's no fool - but Nel kept going back asking crazy questions like, "So, he told you, in response to that question, that he didn't run" and "he told you he didn't run in the corridor?"

I really, really think Nel contributed mightily to confusing the clueless Derman, tying him up in knots, creating contradictory statements, etc.

Many of you may have figured this out more quickly than me, others may not agree. But, I think Nel is too smart not to have understood (after a fashion) AND too smart simply to let the opportunity pass and/or helping Derman by acknowledging his clear, repeated statements, Lady, I can't recall where or when it occurred in the record. My reason for bringing only had to do with seeing what he meant about that.

There is nothing in this trial that warrants any levity, I know, but when Oldwage chimed in confusing things "times ten", then said, "M'lady I'm sorry, I'm hard of hearing and don't know what you said," at which point Nel "slaps" his hand to his forehead in disbelief, I almost spit out my pop every time.


Nel IS a genious!!!

With respect, I have a different take (Nel is still a genius though!): To understand this exchange you need to have seen the previous session with Derman where Nel roasted yet another expert witness for the defence who was engaged well before the trial, who only finished their report after the accused testified and who mysteriously has no notes of what the accused told him before testimony. The trend and the suspicion is clear. Derman tried to explain that he was forced to revisit Pistorius because there were things in his testimony he needed to clear up, but on this point he didn't elaborate.

In the next session, Nel turned to OP arming himself and subsequent events. He skipped past OP running towards the passage and this threw Derman as he was anticipating a Q on this and eager to give a certain answer he had thought up in the break. Instead Nel talked about going down the passage, and asked a clear question - as far as you are concerned, what was OP's intention at this point as he was down the passageway.

Derman answered very strangely though. He did not answer whatsoever as to what his intention was. He instead answered that this is "where he specifically asked OP" because one of the elements he did not understand from the record was "run" and this is why he met him after his testimony. He then tried to relate it to the question by saying he understood down the passageway he moved on his stumps with one hand on the cupboards.

This immediately raises a big question: why is he mentioning running at all? Why is he explaining this is the reason he met with OP after his testimony? What's it got to do with the question and the answer? This now needs exploring because if it's not relevant to the answer, this raises concerns about Derman*

At first, It appears that Derman is suggesting he thought OP in evidence said he ran down the passage, so Derman asked OP to clear this up, and in the answer he learned his intention as he was down the passage. Nel's questions are all about exploring this and determining whether Derman mentioning running is in any way relevant to answering the question.

Slowly but surely it emerged that it in no way was relevant. Piecing it together, Derman eventually said he knew about running from the record, but he did not specifically think it happened down the passageway, in fact he didn't pay attention to where in OP's response this may have taken place (the bonus icing on the cake - worrying for someone giving expert assessment of his response). The portion of the record, as Oldwage - ten steps behind - helpfully read out, is in fact crystal clear that he ran up to the passage and then moved slowly down the passage. We then find out Derman then asked OP to demonstrate the run and he did, and in a separate request he asked OP to show how he moved down the passage and he did. This bit took quite some teasing out of him, until then it appeared he was suggesting he asked about running and OP started showing him walking down the passageway.

* it shows bias - avoiding question posed and not assisting the court, instead misusing cross examination as a chance to offer things which help the accused. Unfortunately for Derman this was reinforced in the way he gave evidence at many other points during his testimony.

It didn't go unnoticed by me that Derman had further reason to try and force in mention of running - to explain that OP couldn't technically run and all that, just like he said later. The big problem is it's all strange and implausible - if he specifically recalled OP to assess this point and finalise his report, and if he thought it extremely important the court knew what he meant by running, why is there not even mention of it in his report or evidence in chief? He could have even videoed it and entered it as evidence. Even more puzzling, why did OP never once use the word run when Derman spoke to him the first time?

You can watch the start of this exchange here 1h 6min 0sec: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uZ3VtkA3TQM

All just my opinion of course!
 
  • #382
BIB

If she gave him a Valentine card saying she loved him I would think it might be difficult to prove she was about to leave him. I cannot play the video so I cannot see what was said. We know in the few days before her death there had been arguments but I assume as she left him the card that they had overcome the hurdle. However, it is possible that something else brewed up on that night that made her realise the relationship was not to be.

At times I have wondered whether he disapproved of her glamour modelling and I think she was about to sign new contracts. Could something in those contracts have enraged him?

Also, I think their telephone conversations show that they were often awake in the early hours of the morning. Can somebody confirm or shoot me down on that please?

Sorry, I can't ans your Q, but I agree with everything you said. (I can even relate to your not being able to watch the vid.)

All this is IMHO only
:
I don't think for one minute that she was planning to leave OP prior to that awful night. From WhatsApp messages, etc. it strikes me that she was the one pushing for the relationship to deepen in spite of his lack of respect for her. OP didn't love her, and the best thing I can credit him with is that he seemingly didn't tell her he did. I believe she was a convenience (what a waste of time for such a lovely woman) for him until somebody he considered more "suitable" came along.

I, also, believe that RS was the first one to get angry that night and my guess would be that she had good reason. I think it's possible that she discovered something that night that was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. That straw could have been her discovering that OP was carrying on a flirtation with or dating somebody else. Perhaps she came across an article of clothing belonging to another woman or, worse yet, perhaps she came across a Valentine gift OP had purchased for another woman. The possibilities, of course, are endless... All this is IMHO only.

P.S. I am not, btw, suggesting that her death was in any way her fault, so please don't anybody go there. Ty.
 
  • #383
I have it open but have not had time to relax and read today. I'm stressing out about a remodeling project in my home. Who knew that picking out a new sink and faucet could be so demanding! LOL!!! But I am going to read it in a few hours after the day ends here. Thank you so much for finding that and sharing it!

ETA: Hopefully there is some great stuff in there that I can use against AJ. :smile:

BiB… How dare you, Sir !!


:panic:
 
  • #384
He is a police photographer.

http://ewn.co.za/2014/07/09/Oscar-Pistorius-trial-Photographer-agrees-to-moving-extension-cord

I'm quite surprised that anyone would plug a fan into that kind of cord... usually cords that are used for charging cameras, ipods, cell phones and that type of medium do not have the typical pronged type holes for conventional electrical devices like a household fan, vacuum cleaner, etc. Does anyone have experience with cords like what the DT are claiming that one was capable of?
 
  • #385
The legal experts on the legal round table discussion last night were talking about how many unusual aspects there were in this trial:

Why wasn’t mental capacity raised up-front as an issue? It didn’t surface until near the end of the defence case, typically these things are brought up at the outset.

Many of the defence witnesses were only consulted after Oscar’s testimony and shortly before they themselves testified. Most extraordinarily, the social worker who presented herself to the defence and testified the next day they were in court. What was going on here?

Why were so many defence witnesses testifying outside their field of expertise?

The Defence in their plea explanation made a big thing about the crime scene being tampered with and contaminated. Why didn’t they explore this issue further?

Where was the evidence to rebut the firearms charges?
 
  • #386
I have it open but have not had time to relax and read today. I'm stressing out about a remodeling project in my home. Who knew that picking out a new sink and faucet could be so demanding! LOL!!! But I am going to read it in a few hours after the day ends here. Thank you so much for finding that and sharing it!

ETA: Hopefully there is some great stuff in there that I can use against AJ. :smile:

Haha, well in my case, the sink isn't the problem, but the faucets omg! OT, is this going to turn into another blood splatter type argument? :scared:
 
  • #387
Also discussed on the Legal Round Table.

It seems as if the closing arguments won’t simply be read out into the court records. The process of ‘closing argument’ in South Africa can be a dynamic and interactive process. The advocate will start making his submissions and try and go through his ‘heads of argument’ one by one, but he may find himself continuously interrupted by the judge who will ask for clarifications, examples or question him on any contentious issues. They may even get into legal debates and arguments.

Judge Masipa has been fairly quiet so she may not be as interactive as other judges, but frequently one may start to get a sense of what a judge is thinking during closing argument, by the questions she asks. It may be a lot more entertaining than I initially imagined.
 
  • #388
Haha, well in my case, the sink isn't the problem, but the faucets omg! OT, is this going to turn into another blood splatter type argument? :scared:

Well that depends. Are you going to tell me that you found a unique faucet that spurts water across the staircase even when it does not have a pressurized water supply? :D
 
  • #389
If that's the case, it casts doubt on his story that they (or at least he) went to sleep so early.

I think he did go to bed early when he was in training for an event but I am not sure whether he was at the time of the murder though AJ says he was and he is probably right. I have looked for some readable photos of their calls without success. I need to go a listen to the court hearing to see what happened there. I know they were supposed to have gone to bed early on 13th but, unless I imagined it, there were later calls earlier in their relationship.
 
  • #390
Would it show if it had been interrupted and hung up on? Plus we still don't know what that last internet connection was, correct?

Bit confused... Why would an interrupted or hung up on call not show up in the records? Do you mean interrupted or hung up on before finished dialling? And IIRC wasn't it the evidence that there was no call/text from Reeva's phone at the time just before and after the incident. And I thought, and IMBW, that it wasn't for sure she had her telephone with her in the loo anyway. I must be missing something.

And another thought, iirc both MN's call to security that gave the engaged signal and Stipp's call to security that didn't answer both registered on the records so again why wouldn't an interrupted or hung up call register even more so?
 
  • #391
ETA: ooops... this was in ans to Rachael's Q.

Hi. Court is adjourned until Aug. 7. Oral arguments will take place on Aug. 7 & Aug. 8
 
  • #392
OP was a professional athlete… he was in a training period on 13 February… rest and sleep is part of his regimen… we have heard how strictly OP adhered to his training regimen...Peet van Zyl confirmed that and the rest/sleep

Sam Taylor said that OP got up in the morning around 5AM… this means OP had to go to bed early around 10PM for a 7-hour sleep

During Moller's testimony there was a reference to messages when OP an RS had an argument (the one post wedding/engagement reception IIRC) … the times given were unclear because no one specified if they were GMT or SA (GMT + 2)… I believe they were GMT because the data from where they were given were in GMT and the answer were given quite rapidly without any hesitation/conversion.

I one of those message from OP to RS, it was around 3:00AM GMT so 5:00AM SA time… the message was a good morning to RS the day after the argument… RS replied to that message about 2 hours later

And Reeva was due to give her first public speech the next morning... I have at times pondered if that wasn't the one sided "argument" EVDM heard, i.e. if she couldn't sleep and went downstairs to practice her speech felt peckish and took a snack to boot. And I was surprised how early SAs seems to go to bed... 9 to 11. In Spain we don't eat until 10, and not even the elderly are in bed much before 11 or 12, or in the summer 1 to 2!
 
  • #393
http://ewn.co.za/2014/07/09/Oscar-Pistorius-trial-Photographer-agrees-to-moving-extension-cord

I'm quite surprised that anyone would plug a fan into that kind of cord... usually cords that are used for charging cameras, ipods, cell phones and that type of medium do not have the typical pronged type holes for conventional electrical devices like a household fan, vacuum cleaner, etc. Does anyone have experience with cords like what the DT are claiming that one was capable of?

IMBW but IIRC the cord in the EWN photo in your link is not the extension cord the DT are referring to. IIRC the one they want is a white extension lead coming out from underneath the bedside table with a 2 or 3 socket "thief" attached in one of which was plugged the metallic fan. AFAIK that's the "extension cord" the DT want and it could be feasible if Le Roux needed an adapter in which to plug in various items in the.... bathroom !!!??? IDK about SA but in the UK sockets other than 1 amp fused for razors and toothbrushes are not permitted in the bathroom.
 
  • #394
You nailed it. That's exactly what I meant.

Fair point but I then I didn't understand your post. That said I still can't fathom how it could ever be a "travesty of justice" if Masipa didn't see OP demonstrating parts of his story to his DT so they can better construct his defence. That would be a travesty of justice in my opinion since it is clearly work product and therefore privileged but even if she did see it I think she might take away from it more vulnerability and disability than is being recognised.

And in any case, Masipa already observed OP walking without prothesis in court a couple of times so with intelligence, a bit of common sense, and her own disability, I reckon she should be capable of judging how able or disabled OP was that night and to what extent disability could have, or not, affected his probably unconscious decision to not flee, without the need for more demonstrations. Demonstrations that even if admissible, which I doubt they are, are IMO not representative since it is a very different scenario moving in the dark on tiles in a panic, as per OP's version which what Masipa has to judge on, to moving in a well lit room on carpet without the panic. And my bet, and I of course could well be wrong, Masipa could surprise, since although to date I can't fathom how by any stretch OP's disability could exculpate him entirely from even the lesser charge of culpable homicide, IMO Masipa will ponder the point of his disability in her judgement as a factor even if by way of reasoning, not emotion, she finally discards it.
 
  • #395
And Reeva was due to give her first public speech the next morning... I have at times pondered if that wasn't the one sided "argument" EVDM heard, i.e. if she couldn't sleep and went downstairs to practice her speech felt peckish and took a snack to boot. And I was surprised how early SAs seems to go to bed... 9 to 11. In Spain we don't eat until 10, and not even the elderly are in bed much before 11 or 12, or in the summer 1 to 2!
Wasn't the argument between 1 and 2am? I doubt very much that Reeva was reciting her speech so loudly that EVDM thought she was hearing an argument. On top of which, OP was supposedly asleep at the time, so why would Reeva be talking that loud and risk waking him up?
 
  • #396
Re my earlier post that I thought there were late calls between the two. I have tracked down 3 nights where there were late calls BUT I think they were nights when there had been arguments. I have times of 00.08 18th January, 03.14 28th January and 00.09 + 01.27 on 8th Feb.These, of course, were calls deemed relevant to the case. There were 1700 calls/Whatsapps in their short relationship most of which we shall never know whether there were more.
 
  • #397
And Reeva was due to give her first public speech the next morning... I have at times pondered if that wasn't the one sided "argument" EVDM heard, i.e. if she couldn't sleep and went downstairs to practice her speech felt peckish and took a snack to boot. And I was surprised how early SAs seems to go to bed... 9 to 11. In Spain we don't eat until 10, and not even the elderly are in bed much before 11 or 12, or in the summer 1 to 2!

It seems unlikely though that she could have left the room quietly, recited her speech, had a snack, gone back to bed after two and then woken at 3 ish and then decided she needed to pass urine. She would have only produced 30 ml of urine (or so) at night between 2-3 am, hardly enough to give the sensation of a full bladder. Common sense would dictate that if she'd be more likely to have gone to the bathroom after "practising her speech".
 
  • #398
Wasn't the argument between 1 and 2am? I doubt very much that Reeva was reciting her speech so loudly that EVDM thought she was hearing an argument. On top of which, OP was supposedly asleep at the time, so why would Reeva be talking that loud and risk waking him up?

I agree. And, I believe the argument was said to have started at 1:56 am. Somewhere there was a mention of a phone or internet connection made at 1:48am. Then I never heard anymore about it. Perhaps it was discovered to have been one of those auto/update things. It just always struck me as an odd coincidence that some kind of "communication device" showed activity so soon before argument started... IDK...

O/T - So nice, btw, to see post from Barnacle here today.
 
  • #399
I agree. And, I believe the argument was said to have started at 1:56 am. Somewhere there was a mention of a phone or internet connection made at 1:48am. Then I never heard anymore about it. Perhaps it was discovered to have been one of those auto/update things. It just always struck me as an odd coincidence that some kind of "communication device" showed activity so soon before argument started... IDK...

O/T - So nice, btw, to see post from Barnacle here today.

I am sure this is significant. IIRC the Internet data was submitted as evidence but the details of the 0148 connection on Oscar's phone weren't made public. On cross it was agreed that phones CAN make automatic connections and after Nel didn't expand media reports speculated that this 5 min connection wasn't manual and eventually this came to be "true". But we actually have no idea whether it was or wasn't. I agree it seems like too much of a coincidence for there to be Internet activity just before the sounds of an argument was hoping Nel would bring it up in OP's cross. However, he's built a very sound case without it and if it turns up in his closing it will be the veritable "icing on the cake". I view the jeans, damaged tiles etc in the same way.
 
  • #400
I agree. And, I believe the argument was said to have started at 1:56 am. Somewhere there was a mention of a phone or internet connection made at 1:48am. Then I never heard anymore about it. Perhaps it was discovered to have been one of those auto/update things. It just always struck me as an odd coincidence that some kind of "communication device" showed activity so soon before argument started... IDK...

O/T - So nice, btw, to see post from Barnacle here today.

I am sure this is significant. IIRC the Internet data was submitted as evidence but the details of the 0148 connection on Oscar's phone weren't made public. On cross it was agreed that phones CAN make automatic connections and after Nel didn't expand media reports speculated that this 5 min connection wasn't manual and eventually this came to be "true". But we actually have no idea whether it was or wasn't. I agree it seems like too much of a coincidence for there to be Internet activity just before the sounds of an argument was hoping Nel would bring it up in OP's cross. However, he's built a very sound case without it and if it turns up in his closing it will be the veritable "icing on the cake". I view the jeans, damaged tiles etc in the same way.

BIB - that is a hell of a coincidence!!!!
 
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