Trial Discussion Thread #5 - 14.03.11-12, Day 7-8

[HauntsForHope]

"According to the reports, Reeva Steenkamp’s autopsy revealed that her skull was crushed by a bloody cricket bat before she was shot in the head."

<modsnip>

http://foxnewsinsider.com/2013/02/2...beaten-with-a-cricket-bat-before-she-was-shot

 

[minor4th]

Can I confirm whether it has been established that the argument was definitely coming from Pistorius' house? I never quite got that. Whether it was just sounds from a general direction, or more definite. Also, how many witnesses to date have testified about it?

Thanks

The only witness so far who heard anything that sounded like arguing was Merwe - and she said she only heard one voice and she did not know where the sounds were coming from. It has definitely not been established that there was arguing coming from Oscar's house before the gunshots

 

[minor4th]

"According to the reports, Reeva Steenkamp’s autopsy revealed that her skull was crushed by a bloody cricket bat before she was shot in the head."

http://foxnewsinsider.com/2013/02/2...beaten-with-a-cricket-bat-before-she-was-shot

That is old and has been retracted by the state.

 

[minor4th]

They haven't yet explained them. I'm going on words earlier in the trial from Roux where he "put" to Stippe when Stippe questioned the order of events that the door was battered first because there were bullet holes in the knocked out panel and splinters in (some of? all?) Reeva's wounds. Roux indicated then that the state was not contesting that, and the state didn't raise any objection.

There was an exchange whereby Nel objected to Roux "putting it to" Stipp that the if the 3:17 sounds were gunshots then the earlier bangs must have been the cricket bat. Roux stridently argued that the State appeared to be changing their theory because it seemed like the state was arguing that both sets of bangs were gunshots.

Nel explained that it is the state's case that there was one set of gunshots at 3:17 that killed Reeva and that she was screaming before that. He did not offer any explanation about what the first bangs could have been.

 

[Feynman]

I'm just gonna throw this out, and it is merely my own speculation. I think there was an argument, and it was probably over some texting OP was doing or had done with another female. Some how later, Reeva snuck his phone away and took it to the toilet to read, or see what he had been doing. When Oscar realized his phone was gone, he went into a rage to get it back...
Both phones were found in the toilet.

Of course Oscar couldn't have used his phone anyway, because he had forgotten his password :wink:

So she took his phone to the bathroom, and he took hers? Or she took both?

Note: The phones were not found in the toilet room, but outside that in the bathroom on/near the bathmat. And no, OP never claimed to have lost the pwd to an iphone.

 

[minor4th]

EVERYTHING would make more sense in this case if the door was bashed in before the shots were fired. But unfortunately, it doesn't seem like that will be the theory of either side.

I don't think it's either side's theory because the forensics preclude that - e.g. bullet holes through the broken out panel, splinters hitting Reeva from being shot from the other side of the door

 

[HauntsForHope]

There could be bashing of the door with the bat before AND after the shooting. I don't think the order matters much. The point is, ear witness' confirm, an hour of argument followed by screams and gunshots. Then, her body is found beaten and shot. It's not much of a stretch. What was on the phones she ran in there with? That is where we will find the motive....

 

[minor4th]

This may well have been discussed before and if it has i apologise.
One thing that doesn't make sense to me is in Oscar's affidavit he says and i quote

"I went back into the bedroom and grabbed my cricket bat to bash open the toilet door. A panel or panels broke off and I found the key on the floor and unlocked and opened the door".

Now from looking at the size of the gap in the door here

(graphic) http://www.tmz.com/2013/05/31/oscar-pistorius-murder-scene-bloody-photos-surface/

Clearly all you would be able to fit through that gap would be an arm, i think it's very conservative to estimate the shortest distance between the floor and the bottom of the gap is 100 centimeters, it would be impossible to pick up a key through that hole in the door from that height with one arm.
So how on earth did he manage to pick up the key?.

This has bothered me also, but he did have his legs on at that time, so his ability to bend and reach would have been greater - and also could the key have slid out into the bathroom area when he broke in the panel?

 

[Dmacky]

No, he says in his affi that he found the key on the floor.:facepalm:

:giggle:

And we all know that Oscar always tells the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth

 

[Dmacky]

There could be bashing of the door with the bat before AND after the shooting. I don't think the order matters much. The point is, ear witness' confirm, an hour of argument followed by screams and gunshots. Then, her body is found beaten and shot. It's not much of a stretch. What was on the phones she ran in there with? That is where we will find the motive....

Well, the problem is....Oscar cannot for the life of him remember that darn PASSWORD for his own phone. LOL

 

[Lyra500]

The only witness so far who heard anything that sounded like arguing was Merwe - and she said she only heard one voice and she did not know where the sounds were coming from. It has definitely not been established that there was arguing coming from Oscar's house before the gunshots

Do you have a transcript to back that up?

She did not say that she could only hear one voice from what i understood - she said she heard arguing which by definition would mean at least two voices even if she was unable to distinguish them any further.

A witness has told the murder trial of Oscar Pistorius that she heard "loud voices" arguing followed by "shots or explosions" the night Reeva Steenkamp was killed.
Estelle van der Merwe, who lived just under 100 metres from Pistorius' Pretoria house, said she was woken just before 2am on St Valentine's Day by the row, which went on for around an hour before she heard shots fired.

<modsnip>

Even if this witness was unable to guarantee that the arguing she heard came from op's house, i don't think it is fair to suggest that she said she only heard one voice - or are you suggesting that by pure coincidence she heard some lunatic arguing with themselves for an hour on the night of the shooting?

Michelle Burger also said that she heard a woman and a man shouting before hearing shots. I would have thought that could also be interpreted as having heard an argument.

 

[minor4th]

I would be surprised if this was true. I wouldn't expect that defendants have to incriminate themselves or reveal their case beforehand. And I'm fairly certain prosecutors have to hand over any exculpatory evidence, but just wondered if a failed experiment would be included since there is room for argument that conditions couldn't be duplicated exactly etc.

Usually the defense does not have to turn over reports and findings from experts who they will not call at trial.

 

[Really?]

I'm just gonna throw this out, and it is merely my own speculation. I think there was an argument, and it was probably over some texting OP was doing or had done with another female. Some how later, Reeva snuck his phone away and took it to the toilet to read, or see what he had been doing. When Oscar realized his phone was gone, he went into a rage to get it back...
Both phones were found in the toilet.

Of course Oscar couldn't have used his phone anyway, because he had forgotten his password :wink:

This is how I picture the evening unfolding....moo

 

[lisasalinger]

The whole bunch of them( OP included) sound like spoilt brats with too much money in their bank accounts and not much to do with their time!!
PS: I will add it doesn't make OP a killer thou.

BBM

Agreed, however... based on everything we are hearing, I surely think this demonstrates he is capable. That is part of the equation.

He had a loaded gun in his home with bullets that could blow someone to pieces. It seems like it was just a matter of time before somebody gave him the motivation.

I read something yesterday, can't remember where or who wrote it, but I think it's so appropriate here. If you put a flammable substance in a room that also has a flame, eventually it's going to blow up. I'm totally paraphrasing here, but you catch my drift. It was just a matter of time with him, IMO.

 

[Cherwell]

Even if this witness was unable to guarantee that the arguing she heard came from op's house, i don't think it is fair to suggest that she said she only heard one voice - or are you suggesting that by pure coincidence she heard some lunatic arguing with themselves for an hour on the night of the shooting?

Michelle Burger also said that she heard a woman and a man shouting before hearing shots. I would have thought that could also be interpreted as having heard an argument.

To be fair, if anyone did hear one voice apparently arguing, it could have been someone engaged in an acrimonious phone call.

But we have yet to hear from the closest neighbours. The house with all its lights on!

 

[Dmacky]

So she took his phone to the bathroom, and he took hers? Or she took both?

Note: The phones were not found in the toilet room, but outside that in the bathroom on/near the bathmat. And no, OP never claimed to have lost the pwd to an iphone.

South African prosecutors pressing a murder charge against Oscar Pistorius secured a meeting Thursday with Apple officials in the United States over accessing potentially crucial evidence on the double-amputee athlete’s locked iPhone, they said.

Pistorius claimed he forgot the password for the cellphone, one of a number found at his upscale villa after he shot dead girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp Feb. 14, 2013.

http://indianexpress.com/article/wo...storius-investigators-meet-apple-over-iphone/



Pistorius told authorities he could not remember the password to his own cell phone. As a result, authorities took the phone to Apple headquarters to have it unlocked. This raises the possibility that Pistorius may have been hiding incriminating messages.

http://www.tsn.ca/other_sports/story/?id=445273

 

[lisasalinger]

Roux says, Darrin should have said , Oscar.. the magazine is in the gun..

well. I suppose.. but he didn't.. he thought that Oscar would automatically know

Darrin asks the judge.. why would I walk around with a weapon without a magazine in it??

Roux says, Oscar says he was upset that Darrin didn't tell him the magazine was in the gun.. (??)

now roux does a 1/2 twist with pike and doubles back

so its Oscars position, that its really Darrins fault, Darrin didn't tell him re the magazine.

BBM

Sounds like Oscar has Jodi Arias Syndrome :banghead:

 

[Lyra500]

I agree. If I understand that the shot went through her arm and into her head, then IMO she was already in a "defensive" position when that shot hit. That to me proves the shot to the head was not first and there was something to be scared of already. Hence the screaming heard by many witnesses before the shots.

Indeed if she was just innocently using the loo without a care in the world, why would she have had her arms shielding her head in the way that the gunshot wounds suggest?

(Not that she was using the loo anyway because her shorts were up.)

 

[*Indigo*]

I couldn't find anything to really confirm the shot to the left arm, just the injury to the left hand, between the second and third finger. I don't know if anyone else has found more info.

Here is a very rough diagram of what I got.

Wow this is a Great diagram!!
Thankyou Zwiebel for doing this!

 

[james83]

This has bothered me also, but he did have his legs on at that time, so his ability to bend and reach would have been greater - and also could the key have slid out into the bathroom area when he broke in the panel?

Seems very unlikely that the key could have fallen out of the toilet.

I don't think it's relevant if he had his legs on or not if as it seems to me from the photo that all he would be able fit through the gap would be his arm, so he would have his arm through the gap with his armpit resting on the unbroken part of the door reaching down towards the key on the floor.
Apparently the average length of a male arm from finger tip to shoulder is 74cm's(29.1 inches).
JMO unless he has super long arms it simply cannot be true that he picked the key up from the bathroom floor as he claimed in his affidavit.
I would estimate that the gap between the bottom of the door is 100cm's(39 inches), for margin of error even if we say the gap is 90cms(35 inches), Oscar would have to have 89-90cm long arms to as he put it "pick the key up".

Out of interest does anyone agree/disagree with my estimate of how high up the door the missing part is at it's lowest point?