Trial Discussion Thread #58 - 14.17.10, Day 47 ~ sentencing~

[Giles]

Where I live in Sussex, we have HUGE bonfire night processions (main one is in Lewes) where figures of hate/ridicule are paraded through the streets and burnt on the bonfire .. I wonder if he might feature in that this year (if he's not already been done, that is .. I'll have to look it up on their webpage).

How funny, I hadn't thought of that. The Battle bonfire always has one primary 'hate figure' of the year on top of the main bonfire. I wonder whether it will be OP this year?

 

[Onlyamum]

Don't think I will sleep much tonight... I think if JM wants to avoid an appeal by either side then 7-8 years might do it, that way Roux won't risk the verdict becoming Murder and Nel will not risk a lower sentence. To be honest I think anything more than 2 years will show him that he and the Pistorians don't control the world. I know most of us want the minimum 10 years that Nel asked for but in reality I don't think that will happen at all. Also going by JM 'sympathy' towards OP it could easily be a 2 years suspended sentence.... We don't know and that's a fact but I really hope she makes up for the disappointing verdict by imposing an appropriate sentence. See you all in the morning for a massive :grouphug: and hope for justice for beautiful Reeva and her dignified and strong family and also to Mr Nel who has fought so damn hard for justice. His closing arguments really were heart wrenching

 

[foxbluff]

Oooooh...isn't Photoshop wonderful?

Oooooh yes... the wonders of photoshop!

I'm not positive, but the image below looks to be a set of photos which could have been used for the earlier image which appeared photoshopped:

 

[cottonweaver]

In a week moment I downloaded the Trish Taylor/Sam Taylor book but didn’t read it all. Just had another look

A few interesting points in there, which may be interesting to WSers whilst we eagerly await tomorrow’s sentence. According to them:
- OP, in terrible turmoil during 2012 Olympics and Paralyms was continually contacting Trish Taylor for support- not his family- which undermines the close “family unity narrative” spun around the trial
- Valentine’s Days were, over the years, always turbulent days of arguments and strife for OP in his previous relationships and no different with ST and OP in feb 2012.
- OP hated ST modeling to extent of offering to match the payment to stop her
- The invites for ST (prised out of PVZyl by Nel in witness box) to London 2012 actually only happened cause OP realized she had started dating someone else which he wanted to put a stop to. OP was, by this time, in emotional meltdown and PVZ et al needed to get ST out there to avert disaster.
- Lots of references to two-timing ST with Babyshoes Jenna throughout relationship
- Deceit and sob stories as a routine way of manipulating people and situations for OP- almost “Walter Mitty”

 

[Lux et Veritas]

Nel said Pistorius should not use his disability to avoid jail. “I find it disturbing that a man with a disability, that competed with able-bodied athletes would now shamelessly use this as an argument,” Nel said. “When it suits us it's a handicap.”

Nel argued that by giving the Steenkamps R6000 a month for 18 months and offering them another R375,000, Pistorius had tried to influence his sentence. He said he was saddened when he heard about payments to the Steenkamps and questioned why the offer was made between judgment and sentencing proceedings. “The offer is nothing but an attempt to influence sentence,” Nel said. “If I heard that after this case was finalised Mr Pistorius donated money... it would be different. But no.”
http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/ubuntu-or-10-years-for-oscar-1.1766967

The Pistorius clan are slimy scuzzballs.

They attempt to buy off the Steenkamps with an insultingly paltry sum.

They do so between the verdict and sentencing (does anyone really believe the timing was mere coincidence?). No doubt, had little Ozzie been acquitted on all charges, they would have offered ZERO.

They demand to keep the offer private - yet they themselves bring it up in open court! Now why would they do such a total 180?

First, the (ungrateful, uncooperative) Steenkamps rejected their blood money.

Second, miffed at said rejection and with no longer any need to remain silent, they crow about their offer to paint a picture of Oscar as broke, broken, contrite, heartfelt, blah, blah, blah.

LOOK!! Oscar’s sold the last of his earthly possessions to generously assist the Steenkamps in their terrible time of need!... (which he directly caused).

LOOK!! Oscar’s “lost” everything now (the Steenkamps took the very last of it - even though they didn’t) so there’s no need for prison!

Such ice-cold, Machiavellian strategy is repulsive.

They make their bribes private while they pray in public - Pharisees dressed in their Sunday finest.

OP and his vile family should take their blood money “trust” and stick it up their collective azzes sideways.

 

[soozieqtips]

In a week moment I downloaded the Trish Taylor/Sam Taylor book but didn’t read it all. Just had another look

A few interesting points in there, which may be interesting to WSers whilst we eagerly await tomorrow’s sentence. According to them:
- OP, in terrible turmoil during 2012 Olympics and Paralyms was continually contacting Trish Taylor for support- not his family- which undermines the close “family unity narrative” spun around the trial
- Valentine’s Days were, over the years, always turbulent days of arguments and strife for OP in his previous relationships and no different with ST and OP in feb 2012.
- OP hated ST modeling to extent of offering to match the payment to stop her
- The invites for ST (prised out of PVZyl by Nel in witness box) to London 2012 actually only happened cause OP realized she had started dating someone else which he wanted to put a stop to. OP was, by this time, in emotional meltdown and PVZ et al needed to get ST out there to avert disaster.
- Lots of references to two-timing ST with Babyshoes Jenna throughout relationship
- Deceit and sob stories as a routine way of manipulating people and situations for OP- almost “Walter Mitty”

BIB - In my experience, those who cheat and lie (hello OP), are very often jealous and possessive about their own partners, mainly because they know that since they themselves are capable of cheating, lying, and living a double life, they automatically assume their partners are, too. I think these types of people can never truly relax and have peace of mind, because they're always waiting for someone to stab them in the back (just like they do to other people).

 

[Mr Fossil]

also interested to hear your take on the bath panel mr f...

1. looks like it would have made a fair bit of noise - which raises the question as to whether the bat on door was the only source of sounds [other than gunshots]

2. as a house owner, i would be aware of unusual damage of that nature, the event, etc. - if it had happened prior to that night [e.g. op had an explanation for the broken window]. op offered no explanation, as far as i am aware, for the panel. this makes me think it definitely happened on the night.

There are a few other possible noise sources (that we know of): the bath panel (as you say), the wall tiles (though perhaps caused when OP hit the frame of the door) and the bedroom door, which OP ridiculously barged on his way back upstairs after opening the front door. I can't fit this trip into the timeline where he has it as there simply isn't time unless he's running around whilst on the phone to Netcare, which is not what he says (to Roux or Nel). It's interesting that the Stipps are the nearest neighbours with a direct line of clear, open space to OP's open bedroom/bathroom windows from their open bedroom balcony door and they hear a set of sounds much earlier than any other witnesses (except Christo Menelaou, who wasn't called, and who heard 3 bangs at 03:08) and yet it is their testimony that gets heavily manipulated by Roux and Masipa (e.g. the sequence is changed and Dr Stipp's most damning call to Security gets moved to 03:27:14).

Then we have Vermeuelen's testimony (and measurements) which suggests OP was on his stumps when bashing the door with the cricket bat.

I have been busy working on something else (which I brought up a long while ago, namely OP's evolving versions, the changes and discrepancies: a cause and effect analysis). It's proving very interesting and I shall complete it regardless of what happens tomorrow but it will take a while. I'm now of the opinion that my theory (for those who managed to see it) is wrong in some key points. I shall be tailoring it! It's definitely necessary to see everything as a whole and not to try to justify individual components of OP's evidence. The phone activations remain key though to triggering events.

 

[mister happy]

I take it the Pistorius family is not on your fave glow list, Lux et Veritas.

 

[redheart]

I have been busy working on something else (which i brought up a long while ago, namely op's evolving versions, the changes and discrepancies: A cause and effect analysis). It's proving very interesting and i shall complete it regardless of what happens tomorrow but it will take a while. I'm now of the opinion that my theory (for those who managed to see it) is wrong in some key points. I shall be tailoring it! It's definitely necessary to see everything as a whole and not to try to justify individual components of op's evidence. The phone activations remain key though to triggering events.

RSBM: Looking forward to reading what you're currently working on, and your updated theory if you post it again. Your posts are always so well thought out and factual.

 

[jay-jay]

In a week moment I downloaded the Trish Taylor/Sam Taylor book but didn’t read it all. Just had another look

A few interesting points in there, which may be interesting to WSers whilst we eagerly await tomorrow’s sentence. According to them:
- OP, in terrible turmoil during 2012 Olympics and Paralyms was continually contacting Trish Taylor for support- not his family- which undermines the close “family unity narrative” spun around the trial
- Valentine’s Days were, over the years, always turbulent days of arguments and strife for OP in his previous relationships and no different with ST and OP in feb 2012.
- OP hated ST modeling to extent of offering to match the payment to stop her
- The invites for ST (prised out of PVZyl by Nel in witness box) to London 2012 actually only happened cause OP realized she had started dating someone else which he wanted to put a stop to. OP was, by this time, in emotional meltdown and PVZ et al needed to get ST out there to avert disaster.
- Lots of references to two-timing ST with Babyshoes Jenna throughout relationship
- Deceit and sob stories as a routine way of manipulating people and situations for OP- almost “Walter Mitty”

BBM .. well, I bet he hated Reeva modelling then .. and now I'm wondering just in what way he tried to help her with her contracts .. I think he was insanely jealous that other men would've been ooogling over Reeva in FHM, etc.

 

[TorisMom003]

Oooooh yes... the wonders of photoshop!

I'm not positive, but the image below looks to be a set of photos which could have been used for the earlier image which appeared photoshopped:

View attachment 61780

I'm thinking that none of the photos of OP and Aimee together are photoshopped at all. Let's have a look at one of Aimee getting her hair fixed with OP sitting there next to her and they are wearing the exact same outfits.


http://slimcelebrity.com/celebrity-athletes/aimee-pistorius-oscar-pistorius-sister-photo/

By the way, there are several more photos of the pair at the link above.

 

[geevee]

It surprised me that Nel never asked OP how that damage occurred or did I miss it? Forensics couldn't actual say what caused it but it was quite obviously part of the destruction that night.

I was awfully surprised Nel didn't ask about it either.

I'm also surprised that Nel was going for Murder 1 with a minimum of 25 years in prison, but when he gains a conviction for Culpable Homicide (two steps down) he doesn't ask for the maximum sentence. Did he not think OP deserved to be in prison for at least the minimum of Dolus Directus? Why wouldn't he ask for the max for CH when it's 10 years less that DD?

 

[JuneBug67]

~snipped~

No, my 'assumption' was not a 'bad' one .. I've posted on numerous forums in the past, and those have always shown every single post a poster has made in their posting history .. I had no reason to think this forum was any different.

I think it's self-evident that an assumption that turns out to be wrong was a bad assumption. And I struggle to figure out how you might have enough information to know that every other forum you have every been on shows every single post a poster has made in their posting history. What can that be but another poor assumption to back up your lousy assumption in this case? And why try to impeach my statement anyway? It was weak evidence offered for a weak instinct.

 

[sleuth-d-]

There are a few other possible noise sources (that we know of): the bath panel (as you say), the wall tiles (though perhaps caused when OP hit the frame of the door) and the bedroom door, which OP ridiculously barged on his way back upstairs after opening the front door. I can't fit this trip into the timeline where he has it as there simply isn't time unless he's running around whilst on the phone to Netcare, which is not what he says (to Roux or Nel). It's interesting that the Stipps are the nearest neighbours with a direct line of clear, open space to OP's open bedroom/bathroom windows from their open bedroom balcony door and they hear a set of sounds much earlier than any other witnesses (except Christo Menelaou, who wasn't called, and who heard 3 bangs at 03:08) and yet it is their testimony that gets heavily manipulated by Roux and Masipa (e.g. the sequence is changed and Dr Stipp's most damning call to Security gets moved to 03:27:14).

Then we have Vermeuelen's testimony (and measurements) which suggests OP was on his stumps when bashing the door with the cricket bat.

I have been busy working on something else (which I brought up a long while ago, namely OP's evolving versions, the changes and discrepancies: a cause and effect analysis). It's proving very interesting and I shall complete it regardless of what happens tomorrow but it will take a while. I'm now of the opinion that my theory (for those who managed to see it) is wrong in some key points. I shall be tailoring it! It's definitely necessary to see everything as a whole and not to try to justify individual components of OP's evidence. The phone activations remain key though to triggering events.

thank you for the update.

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

There are a few other possible noise sources (that we know of): the bath panel (as you say), the wall tiles (though perhaps caused when OP hit the frame of the door) and the bedroom door, which OP ridiculously barged on his way back upstairs after opening the front door. I can't fit this trip into the timeline where he has it as there simply isn't time unless he's running around whilst on the phone to Netcare, which is not what he says (to Roux or Nel). It's interesting that the Stipps are the nearest neighbours with a direct line of clear, open space to OP's open bedroom/bathroom windows from their open bedroom balcony door and they hear a set of sounds much earlier than any other witnesses (except Christo Menelaou, who wasn't called, and who heard 3 bangs at 03:08) and yet it is their testimony that gets heavily manipulated by Roux and Masipa (e.g. the sequence is changed and Dr Stipp's most damning call to Security gets moved to 03:27:14).

Then we have Vermeuelen's testimony (and measurements) which suggests OP was on his stumps when bashing the door with the cricket bat.

I have been busy working on something else (which I brought up a long while ago, namely OP's evolving versions, the changes and discrepancies: a cause and effect analysis). It's proving very interesting and I shall complete it regardless of what happens tomorrow but it will take a while. I'm now of the opinion that my theory (for those who managed to see it) is wrong in some key points. I shall be tailoring it! It's definitely necessary to see everything as a whole and not to try to justify individual components of OP's evidence. The phone activations remain key though to triggering events.

BIB1 Broken door panels thrown on the ground would make some noise , too. Just a thought..

BIB2 Thrilled to hear abt yr tailored version :jumping:

 

[foxbluff]

<snipped for space and focus>....The original discussion was in a different section of the site and I don't know where all the early threads are any more, but I did very easily find this previous post of mine.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...5-14-03-11-12-Day-7-8&p=10326678#post10326678

Ty for this link. To me, these two posts epitomize Websleuths at it's best... open minded, insightful, and thirsting after that ever elusive truth. A week doesn't go by here that I don't see what I consider to be brilliant postings, but I'm not sure I have ever seen one directly on top of the other. I hit my print button...

March 12, 2014 - WS - Originally Posted by Carol70
"I don't really have an opinion on OP guilt, I'm interested in the evidence and what it tells us. I'm of the opinion that his story is a possibility but am open minded enough to know it can swing either way.

Truth be told, I've been surprised that everyone has been so adament of his guilt without giving him the benefit of the doubt, we have had similar shootings in SA (have posted the links) when the gunmen were treated with caution, sympathy and cases dismissed as tragic. I can't fathom what's so different in this case. Yes, he is an idiot, egomanic, reckless and thinks he is a cowboy but doesn't make him a cold blooded killer. In fact, most who have met him have said he is a "all round nice guy". And if there was indeed an intruder in his bathroom, he would have been hailed a hero.

I guess I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt until the evidence proves otherwise.

Ps: nice to "meet" you James"

March 12, 2014 -Trial Discussion Thread#5 - Pg.37 - Post#910 - JuneBug67 replies:
"I think that part of it is that this just feels like a domestic violence case at first blush. That was certainly my first sense of it. Oscar needs a very particular set of circumstances to come together that are not necessarily intuitive, where it is easy to make sense of a man murdering his girlfriend in a rage. It's a matter of psychology that once an impression is formed about anything people tend to begin to look for information that confirms their initial belief. It's interesting really. Being open minded is a very active and deliberate thing. You have to work at it with awareness of the traps that can affect thinking and perception. Not always an easy thing.

I think I have been moved off my initial sense of 'guilty' to 'no longer sure' and listening because of the ambiguous nature of the testimony, its sometimes unclear presentation and Roux's effectiveness at demonstrating the fallibility of recall and perception."

 

[JuneBug67]

There are a few other possible noise sources (that we know of): the bath panel (as you say), the wall tiles (though perhaps caused when OP hit the frame of the door) and the bedroom door, which OP ridiculously barged on his way back upstairs after opening the front door. I can't fit this trip into the timeline where he has it as there simply isn't time unless he's running around whilst on the phone to Netcare, which is not what he says (to Roux or Nel). It's interesting that the Stipps are the nearest neighbours with a direct line of clear, open space to OP's open bedroom/bathroom windows from their open bedroom balcony door and they hear a set of sounds much earlier than any other witnesses (except Christo Menelaou, who wasn't called, and who heard 3 bangs at 03:08) and yet it is their testimony that gets heavily manipulated by Roux and Masipa (e.g. the sequence is changed and Dr Stipp's most damning call to Security gets moved to 03:27:14).

Then we have Vermeuelen's testimony (and measurements) which suggests OP was on his stumps when bashing the door with the cricket bat.

I have been busy working on something else (which I brought up a long while ago, namely OP's evolving versions, the changes and discrepancies: a cause and effect analysis). It's proving very interesting and I shall complete it regardless of what happens tomorrow but it will take a while. I'm now of the opinion that my theory (for those who managed to see it) is wrong in some key points. I shall be tailoring it! It's definitely necessary to see everything as a whole and not to try to justify individual components of OP's evidence. The phone activations remain key though to triggering events.

I think we have to be realistic about the subsets of events that could have reasonably produced the key sounds that were interpreted as gunshots, particularly in light of physical and recorded evidence. The sounds were loud and closely grouped. It is far more reasonable to credit - and indeed seek evidence for - the bat strikes on the door that it would be reasonable to think the sounds was some kind of rapid fire medley of tiles and the bath panel or the like.

I am still rolling my eyes over that defence witness with the skunk hair. Weak testimony should be called out no matter what the source or one's beliefs. I considered Vermulen's testimony about Pistorius hitting the door on his stumps to be weak testimony that should be rejected in favour of the far more relevant testimony about Oscar's difficulty with reliable balance on his stumps. Vermulen based this on a 'unnatural position' . For him! Roux was rightly incredulous. Vermulen is older, overweight, not an Olympic athlete, and he has feet and ankles and toes that can brace, flex and pivot! I mean, seriously. Vermulen's opinion of a 'natural position' should not carry a lot of weight.

 

[soozieqtips]

The original discussion was in a different section of the site and I don't know where all the early threads are any more

~snipped~

The threads are all still there. You can start here.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?536-Oscar-Pistorius/page4

 

[JuneBug67]

interesting slight shift in the message:
post-verdict... uncle arnold - i always believed oscar's story.
pre-sentencing... carl/aimee - it has been a tough journey, we take each day as it comes [no mention of believing op story/implied innocence]


how carl can sit there like a member of some royal family having taken/wiped that phone is absolutely beyond my comprehension.
someone arrest him fgs.

I apologize as I don't know what articles have been posted, but one I read earlier had statements of belief in Oscar by both siblings. This wasn't it, but it has some of the same quotes. I'm assuming these are recent quotes, but that is an assumption and I could be wrong.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ister-pistorius-speaks-time-say-love-him.html

 

[JuneBug67]

~snipped~

The threads are all still there. You can start here.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?536-Oscar-Pistorius/page4

Thanks...I did look at those briefly a few days ago but they still seemed to me at the time to be missing a huge chunk of the early discussion. Some of those threads are dated as being started in early 2013 but the posts in them quickly switch to dates in 2014. I will look again when I have more time. It was a quick look that I had and I may have missed something.