Trial Discussion Thread #9 - 14.03.18, Day 12

[Trooper]

I am just not that sure that Roux is even chasing down the aspertions cast against his client... like being charged with Pre meditated murder.. he seems more interested in chasing down a missing watch and being fixated on W.O. Botha whoRoux once had a sort of minor victory against in regard to Oscars Bail hearing.. its like he wants to replay that victorious moment when Oscar got bail.

but this is not a Bail hearing.. its a murder trial. .

I wish Roux all good luck in tracking down the missing watch.. my money is on Clarice Standar, frankly.. all the opportunity and flying under the radar...

 

[Estelle]

Roux said forensic investigator Colonel Motha was a qualified tool mark examiner, had been deeply involved in the case at the start but had never made a full report.

Vermeulen said he had no knowledge of his colleague’s qualifications, experience or involvement in the case and could therefore not comment

I suggest that Colonel Motha was taken off the case.

 

[BritsKate]

Retweeted by Charl du Plessis
David Dadic ‏@DavidDadic 32m
I'm not condoning contamination, but I think, short of converting the crime scene into a wax museum, Roux wouldn't be satisfied.

https://twitter.com/CharlduPlessc

 

[james83]

Why would Van Staden lie about whether he was alone or not?.

 

[04009margaret]

Very interesting conversation on Oscar trial radio regarding "what a reasonable person" would do

 

[minor4th]

If one camera has its clock set to one time, and the other camera's clock is set to another time, the timestamps in the metadata will reflect those differing timestamps.

This could be why the timestamps between Van Staden's photos & Col. M's photos overlapped.

Unless it's proven that both their camera's clocks were set to the exact same time, then I don't think Van Staden is lying.

We'll see if there's some explanation, but the camera clocks would have to be off by 30 minutes or more for them to have been in the bathroom and bedroom at different times while their photo metadata suggests that they were in the same rooms taking pictures at the same time.

I think Van Staden is lying. I think he is covering for his superiors because he was instructed to do so.

 

[Trooper]

Of course... if Roux puts Colonel Motha on the stand as a defence witness, and then , naturally Nel will x-examine him, and it turns out that Colonel Motha is as pure as the driven snow, and Van Stad is lying, I guess then the claim that ' as a fact' Van Stad is lying would have credibility..

But I don't think Roux would ever ever put Colonel MOtha on the stand as a defence witness.. that possibility is so remote as to be without shred of hope.

 

[Rumpole]

Anyone who thinks this cross examination shows desperation or the weakness of the defense, I believe you may have missed the point of what Roux is doing. He is successfully showing that yet another officer is lying about the circumstances of the crime scene and who was present. He is also showing that while the photographer claimed that he was alone while he was documenting the crime scene - it turns out he was not. That throws in doubt the accuracy of the positions of the photographed items and the preservation of the crime scene

I agree. Roux at his brilliant best. Another Prosecution witness discredited and its very clear that the prosecution are trying to "hide" problematic witnesses like Botha and Col Motha. Trying to twink them out of the script altogether, but they cant quite do that. Dark shadows show through the whitewash.

BTW thanks again for the photo time line you did. It was spot on!! Brilliant! I printed a paper copy and it made following the points that Roux was making obvious and easy to follow. Seems Roux and his team produced something similar for their own reference... but I am sure not quite as good as yours :loveyou:

 

[minor4th]

Why would Van Staden lie about whether he was alone or not?.

Because if there were others scurrying about the crime scene when Van Staden was supposedly taking the first crime scene photos to preserve the scene - it suggests that the crime scene was not actually preserved. I think his commanding officers have instructed him to lie in order to cover their mishandling of the crime scene.

 

[04009margaret]

Roux said forensic investigator Colonel Motha was a qualified tool mark examiner, had been deeply involved in the case at the start but had never made a full report.

Vermeulen said he had no knowledge of his colleague’s qualifications, experience or involvement in the case and could therefore not comment

I suggest that Colonel Motha was taken off the case.

According to the witness list Col H S Motha is in ballistics

 

[LemonMousse]

There also seems to be an enormous and unwarranted assumption that if there is any lying going on, it's from this witness. Why can't the "liar" be Col Motha?

Who is he anyway? If his photos are so gosh darn important, why haven't they been entered into evidence and him put on the witness stand?

 

[LemonMousse]

Everyone is lying except OP sounds a bit too conspiracy theory to me.

 

[james83]

Because if there were others scurrying about the crime scene when Van Staden was supposedly taking the first crime scene photos to preserve the scene - it suggests that the crime scene was not actually preserved. I think his commanding officers have instructed him to lie in order to cover their mishandling of the crime scene.

In other words a case of "to many cooks..."?.

 

[Rumpole]

We'll see if there's some explanation, but the camera clocks would have to be off by 30 minutes or more for them to have been in the bathroom and bedroom at different times while their photo metadata suggests that they were in the same rooms taking pictures at the same time.

I think Van Staden is lying. I think he is covering for his superiors because he was instructed to do so.

If professional, official police photographers go around with camera time not set correctly, when investigating a murder scene... knowing that their photos and data WILL be used in court, and especially in this case that they had to know would likely be High Profile.....Then I guess SA cops may well go out on patrol and forget to put bullets in their guns?

 

[Rumpole]

Everyone is lying except OP sounds a bit too conspiracy theory to me.

It could be everyone is lying INCLUDING OP.

But you can't prove OP is lying (beyond reasonable doubt) if all the witnesses are lying too, or even if you can't be sure some of them are telling the truth. Reasonable doubt rules.

 

[Trooper]

the thing is.. what is this huge conspriracy against Oscar?? so big, that everyone in the South Afican Police force, from a Constable, up to Brigadier, including Colonels, and Warrant officers have joined in with tremendous enthusiasm.. all , apparently , at the same time... its as if they were actually waiting for Oscar to shoot someone..

and the weird and inexplicable thing is this.. . maybe Rumpole and minor could elucidate.. .. that Oscar.. all unaware that the entire police force of Pretoria and surrounding provinces were in a cabal against him.. a very persistant one.. he then actually goes and shoots someone !!.. in his own home!!. his girlfriend!!.

and lo and behold. without an exception , all the police join together, secretly, within the hour to plant evidence, plan false witnesses, plant those witnesses from the general population, surreptitiously train the guard dogs to not bark, if you follow this to its logical end, then the police probably planted Reeva on him.. Yes.. she was a plant, employed by the police to trap Oscar into tax evasion or something, and .. well. you know the rest.....

 

[kittychi]

Because if there were others scurrying about the crime scene when Van Staden was supposedly taking the first crime scene photos to preserve the scene - it suggests that the crime scene was not actually preserved. I think his commanding officers have instructed him to lie in order to cover their mishandling of the crime scene.

BBM: INCLUDING Oscar's sister Aimee and Clarice Standar, no?

 

[BritsKate]

Not only is every single witness in collusion but it is also being put to them, repeatedly, what they *should* have put in their statement; what photos they *should* have taken; and how they *should* testify...

by a defense advocate.

 

[katydid23]

The problem for OP, is that, even though his attorney is doing poking little holes in these witnesses stories, the MAJOR problem lies with Oscar's story. And it will keep coming back to believing that he never looked to see where his girlfriend was before he shot through that door.

 

[Trooper]

so what were the SA police cranky with Oscar about before he killed Reeva. ( which even he admits he did ) ??? there has to be a prior and an a priori case for this large and cohesive conspiracy.. its hard to believe it sprang into being at 3.17 am , fully formed, that morning.. everyone one was in on it... you have to include the two metro cops who pulled Darrin over and irritated Oscar.. no one can be left out, its really a matter of one in, all in.. I know you will agree. .. .

then, of course.. Standar has to be in the police conspiracy, too. ye gods.. even ROUX has to be a target of the police.. they must have known Oscar would get him as his legal representation ....

this is so deep.. so convoluted... Occams Razor would have a field day with it.