Trial Discussion Thread #9 - 14.03.18, Day 12

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  • #441
So a police Colonel just happened to be on scene taking pictures for his personal use with a whacky time stamp that also just happens to coincide with the official photographer's time stamps?

That's a reach IMO

Any police officer taking pictures of a crime scene knows that those photos are evidence and have to be turned over to the defense. Even if they are just off hand photos they take from their cell phones.

Maybe he was the one selling the pics to the tabloids, who knows for sure. However, if you check the dates of many of the photos brought into evidence by the prosecution, alot of them were not actually taken that first day, even though many looked like they could have been. Many of them probably have overlapping times as well, if you ignore the date.

Anyway, my point was simple, until the photos Roux was using to confuse this witness and obfuscate what has been presented and accepted as in evidence by the court, they don't exist for any legitimate decision process.
 
  • #442
I notice that you say Police witnesses are either incompetent, biased and untruthful, but say little about independent witnesses. You have to be careful who you include as police witnesses, as many involved in this case do not work for the police. You can't keep continually going down the line claiming this person could have been bribed etc. You need to have a reason - suspicion is absolutely not good enough in a murder inquiry. If conspiracy is at play, then Roux needs to tell Reeva's family about it. Isn't that the least they deserve?

I don't care if the police have made a thousand errors as long as those errors don't alter the prospect of conviction or acquittal. There has to be a relevance to the case. You can't simply say that because a policeman moved a book before it was photographed, the crime scene is contaminated. Sure, he may have moved the book, but what matters is the relevance that object has in relation to contradicting evidence. If it doesn't become relevant to the case then it's a non-issue. This isn't a trial to see how good the police are - the police only had to face this horrible stomach-churning scene because of what a man did with a gun. They would each tell you that they'd rather not have received the call. Sometimes people look for forensic problems not because they're necessarily problematic to the case, but simply because they can use the legalities to ensure the case is quashed (in which case justice is never served).

I'm only talking about the police witnesses - Vermuelen, Van Staden, Van Rensberg (so far).

If you don't think it casts doubt on the crime scene evidence and the investigation when we have 1) police witnesses admitting to crime scene mishandling, and 2) police witnesses whose testimony all contradicts each other as to who was where and when, and 3) police witness testimony that is changed midstream when confronted with contradicting evidence, and (last but not least) 4) police who have stolen property from the crime scene -- well, then of course you're free to believe that the crime scene evidence is reliable and accurate.

Me, all of those factors that have come out during the police testimony gives me great pause to know what exactly is accurate and reliable and what's not - so I don't trust much of it, almost none of it.
 
  • #443
Maybe he was the one selling the pics to the tabloids, who knows for sure. However, if you check the dates of many of the photos brought into evidence by the prosecution, alot of them were not actually taken that first day, even though many looked like they could have been. Many of them probably have overlapping times as well, if you ignore the date.

Anyway, my point was simple, until the photos Roux was using to confuse this witness and obfuscate what has been presented and accepted as in evidence by the court, they don't exist for any legitimate decision process.

The pictures were conditionally admitted on Roux' assurance that the defense will prove them up as photos they received from the police and from the State.

If he fails to do that, that's going to be a real problem for him. ATM I believe that he will since he made that representation to the judge.
 
  • #444
What a shame if Oscar really is guilty of something more than negligence or recklessness, but the state can't prove it because of the way the police compromised the crime scene and the case.

I'm not pointing out the police deficiencies because I want OP to escape consequences or because I think he is totally innocent. I'm pointing them out because they are a reality in this case that will almost surely keep the actual truth from being properly disclosed.
 
  • #445
I'm only talking about the police witnesses - Vermuelen, Van Staden, Van Rensberg (so far).

If you don't think it casts doubt on the crime scene evidence and the investigation when we have 1) police witnesses admitting to crime scene mishandling, and 2) police witnesses whose testimony all contradicts each other as to who was where and when, and 3) police witness testimony that is changed midstream when confronted with contradicting evidence, and (last but not least) 4) police who have stolen property from the crime scene -- well, then of course you're free to believe that the crime scene evidence is reliable and accurate.

Me, all of those factors that have come out during the police testimony gives me great pause to know what exactly is accurate and reliable and what's not - so I don't trust much of it, almost none of it.

BIB
Has that been proved? I must have missed it.
 
  • #446
BIB
Has that been proved? I must have missed it.

So did I. I'm still wondering what time it was that the sister was allowed to go gather the clothing and then the watch for OP and how that coincides with the missing watch/es.
 
  • #447
BIB
Has that been proved? I must have missed it.

A watch went missing while only police were present investigating the crime scene ..so yeah, I guess it had to have been someone in the police crew. Van Rensberg even filed a police report - the State's own witness.
 
  • #448
turaj, thank you so much for mentioning this site. It is of particular interest to me as I'm looking for text, due to my s-l-o-w dial-up ISP not being able to stream videos. (Yes, I'm that one who still has dial-up!)

Just FYI to all, this is CourtChatter's recap from yesterday... ETA or is it today? Date above recap says Tuesday March 18??? I'm confused...lol

http://www.courtchatter.com/2014/03/oscar-pistorius-day-12-recap-more.html

Honestly I can really get into a trial and was set to do so here despite the time problems but this trial could win a prize for the most boring trial ever!!! Maybe I see it that way because to me it is such a clear cut case of murder and he did it...just simple. You know it is moving way too slow when CourtChatter can sum the whole day up so briefly and really include the highpoints (and relevant ones) in a few paragraphs.
 
  • #449
I'm only talking about the police witnesses - Vermuelen, Van Staden, Van Rensberg (so far).

If you don't think it casts doubt on the crime scene evidence and the investigation when we have 1) police witnesses admitting to crime scene mishandling, and 2) police witnesses whose testimony all contradicts each other as to who was where and when, and 3) police witness testimony that is changed midstream when confronted with contradicting evidence, and (last but not least) 4) police who have stolen property from the crime scene -- well, then of course you're free to believe that the crime scene evidence is reliable and accurate.

Me, all of those factors that have come out during the police testimony gives me great pause to know what exactly is accurate and reliable and what's not - so I don't trust much of it, almost none of it.
How come your suspicion is only directed towards the state? I haven't mentioned the watches because until the story unfolds we're none the wiser. If we stick to what we've heard rather than suspicions, there is only one person who we're aware of that's had their hands in the watch box...and it certainly wasn't the police. Coincidence?
 
  • #450
Wow... I did not know that. It would be interesting to know what time that text was sent.

And, BTW, good catch on your part, James83!

Jumping off soozie's post: This is pure speculation on my part, but I suspect that, not only did they have a big fight, I suspect she "dumped him" and was headed home.

It has always seemed to me that a three-month breakup is a popular timeframe for couples who are all wrong for each other.

It has always struck me as odd that they really did not seem to be celebrating valentines day as it was really Feb. 13 and I don't hear any mention of plans for the real V day. No question...big fight and I would not doubt if the ex boyfriend with whom she had coffee a day or two prior may have been her date for v day.
 
  • #451
How come your suspicion is only directed towards the state? I haven't mentioned the watches because until the story unfolds we're none the wiser. If we stick to what we've heard rather than suspicions, there is only one person who we're aware of that's had their hands in the watch box...and it certainly wasn't the police. Coincidence?

Because the defense hasn't put on their case yet. I'm sure I will be suspicious of some of the defense evidence too.
 
  • #452
BIB
Has that been proved? I must have missed it.
No it hasn't been proved. All we know is that OP's sister took a watch from the box. But let's not let facts get in the way of a good conspiracy story :smile:
 
  • #453
No it hasn't been proved. All we know is that OP's sister took a watch from the box. But let's not let facts get in the way of a good conspiracy story :smile:

We also know that an additional 2 watches went missing when only police investigators were on the scene. The State's own witness (Van Rensberg) testified to this and also that he searched everyone and filed a police report.

Are you now suggesting that the State and the State's witness is wrong about this? :smile:
 
  • #454
Wow... I did not know that. It would be interesting to know what time that text was sent.

And, BTW, good catch on your part, James83!

Jumping off soozie's post: This is pure speculation on my part, but I suspect that, not only did they have a big fight, I suspect she "dumped him" and was headed home.

It has always seemed to me that a three-month breakup is a popular timeframe for couples who are all wrong for each other.

Yes, I saw her room mate, Gina Meyers, say that in an interview. Text her to say she wouldn't be home. That it had gotten late and she was going to stay the night there. I will look for that video to post it.

Found it. It's a BBC documentary about the case: That quote is at 21:30 on the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj8TF4MrO8Q
 
  • #455
We also know that an additional 2 watches went missing when only police investigators were on the scene. The State's own witness (Van Rensberg) testified to this and also that he searched everyone and filed a police report.

Are you now suggesting that the State and the State's witness is wrong about this? :smile:

And did he find the watch when he searched everyone?
 
  • #456
I agree with you. I think Roux could be trying to build a case that the professionals present at the crime scene cannot be trusted, firstly the matter of the missing watch. Who took it? In a situation like this everyone is under suspicion. and secondly the witness today, the forensic photographer, was made to look either a liar or incompetent or both. Roux could use this as evidence of an unfair trial. That's what got OJ Simpson off the hook. I'd rather see OP getting a fair trial.
This appears to be the case, certainly from what we've seen so far. You're right to quote the OJ case, one extreme example of a high profile celebrity with high profile lawyers, using technicalities to evade justice.

I hope OP didn't do it intentionally, for his sake. That doesn't alter my view that it's still the most incredulous irresponsible slaughter of a young lady's life. Conversely if he did do it out of rage, no sentence will be long enough. I don't think anybody needs to frame OP for anything. He's put himself where he is right now, and only has himself to blame.
 
  • #457
I agree with you. Even it is proven conclusively that the crime scene was staged or purposely manipulated - even if it is proven that all of the police officers are covering for each other, etc, I think the judge can still convict OP of culpable homicide from his statement alone. I've never argued otherwise.

My points are directed more at premeditation and what I believe to be the State's overcharging and questionable tactics.

By OP's own account:
  • He stood at a door that exited to the outside of his home, away from the source of the sounds.
  • OP instead went from the door to his bed, retrieving a gun.
  • OP walked out of his bedroom into a hallway, towards the other human he thought opened a window.
  • OP entered the room where he believed the person was who opened the window.
  • OP heard a person behind a closed toilet door.
  • OP told the person to leave his house.
  • OP then shot four times at the person behind the door.

By OP's own account, from the time he heard a bathroom window slide open, to the time he shot the gun four times, his actions were those of somebody who planned to kill the person in his bathroom.

If he wanted to protect RS he would have first made sure was in bed and not in the bathroom. If it was important enough to tell RS to call the police it would have been important enough for OP to make sure RS was awake before he told her to call the police.

Combine this with:
  • four witnesses hearing a woman screaming before gunshots,
  • Boba saying that OP said, "Everything's fine," and
  • OP not calling the police or ambulance after killing RS,

This is a prima facie case for premeditated murder. I.e., the priima facie evidence requires OP to defend his actions. Without OP's explanations it's self-evident he murdered RS by shooting her with no justification.

The premeditation is indicated by the thought and time it took to walk from the door to the bed, get the gun, walk down the hallway, enter the bathroom, and fire four shots.

OP's explanation that the killing was justified because of a mistaken identity fails in three ways:
  • He moved considerable distance towards who he imagined to be a threat,
  • The imagined person did nothing threatening,
  • The imagined person was in the exact location, behind the toilet door, that it would be reasonable to expect the woman sharing his bed might be.

Clearly OP's own explanation of the events describes premeditation.
 
  • #458
BIB
Has that been proved? I must have missed it.

I thought all police had been searched and nothing was found on any of them. Maybe I got that wrong.
 
  • #459
  • #460
I thought all police had been searched and nothing was found on any of them. Maybe I got that wrong.
No. You didn't get it wrong. Nothing was found when their cars and bags were searched.
 
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