Trial Discussion weekend Thread #18

[Linda7NJ]

If somebody gave me a binder full of people's private text message conversations, emails and pictures... I'd put on a pot of coffee, kick up my feet and dig in. But I'm a nosy bast@rd.

Me too!!!



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[Trooper]

Tracking Oscars phone around the house is a bit of a chore but mildly interesting..

He uses it to ring Standar, and Baba back .. this is from upstairs, after he has 'battled' ( what an interesting word. . one could have used 'struggled, tackled, removed'.. but no .. he uses the metaphor of the soldier against the enemy )to get Reeva's quickly expiring body out of the cubicle and into the bathroom. Upstairs, still, he uses it to call Netcare.

He goes downstairs to open the door for the ambo. Does he take his phone on this trip and leave it downstairs?

He goes back up and picks up Reeva's body.. I doubt if he would be able to pick up the phone as well.

'On my way downstairs'.. Standar appears, with Clarice, he doesn't say so but she did.

then by a nose, Baba, then Stipp.

Before Stipp or Baba arrives.. Clarice has got black plastic bags from somewhere probably the kitchen , and hand towels, (small dishpolishing linen ) and has gone upstairs to get bigger towels.. ( Van Rensburg Testimony ) .. did she bring Oscars phone downstairs with her?? if so , she went into the bathroom, or the bedroom or both.

Oscar, meanwhile is trapped on the hallway tiles with Reeva.. his fingers are in her mouth , Stipp has to do a jawline maneuver to remove them, and free Oscar up. He then goes upstairs. . Did he bring his phone down with him on his return trip??

( After he has shot Reeva, he has been down the stairs, ( open the door) back up the stairs, down the stairs, (Reevas body ) back up the stairs and down the stairs. ( mystery trip) . Clarice has made one trip up and back ostensibly to collect larger towels)

but that phone is definitely downstairs now.. Clarice starts using it to ring various people... Peet Van Zyl, for example.. Oscars number came up on his dial, but its Clarice using it to ring him. Other people are dialed on this phone. Oscar rang Justin Divaris himself.

and then that phone evaporates into thin air for quite some days..

 

[Trooper]

If somebody gave me a binder full of people's private text message conversations, emails and pictures... I'd put on a pot of coffee, kick up my feet and dig in. But I'm a nosy bast@rd.

I thought it was significant, that tabling all that electronic stuff, Nel made a long and concrete point with Judge Masipa that the defence had received each and every item of data and apparatus back and Roux, after a bit of huffing , stipulated that, yes. he had received everything.

 

[lisasalinger]

Tracking Oscars phone around the house is a bit of a chore but mildly interesting..

He uses it to ring Standar, and Baba back .. this is from upstairs, after he has 'battled' ( what an interesting word. . one could have used 'struggled, tackled, removed'.. but no .. he uses the metaphor of the soldier against the enemy )to get Reeva's quickly expiring body out of the cubicle and into the bathroom. Upstairs, still, he uses it to call Netcare.

He goes downstairs to open the door for the ambo. Does he take his phone on this trip and leave it downstairs?

He goes back up and picks up Reeva's body.. I doubt if he would be able to pick up the phone as well.

'On my way downstairs'.. Standar appears, with Clarice, he doesn't say so but she did.

then by a nose, Baba, then Stipp.

Before Stipp or Baba arrives.. Clarice has got black plastic bags from somewhere probably the kitchen , and hand towels, (small dishpolishing linen ) and has gone upstairs to get bigger towels.. ( Van Rensburg Testimony ) .. did she bring Oscars phone downstairs with her?? if so , she went into the bathroom, or the bedroom or both.

Oscar, meanwhile is trapped on the hallway tiles with Reeva.. his fingers are in her mouth , Stipp has to do a jawline maneuver to remove them, and free Oscar up. He then goes upstairs. . Did he bring his phone down with him on his return trip??

( After he has shot Reeva, he has been down the stairs, ( open the door) back up the stairs, down the stairs, (Reevas body ) back up the stairs and down the stairs. ( mystery trip) .

but that phone is definitely downstairs now.. Clarice starts using it to ring various people... Peet Van Zyl, for example.. Oscars number came up on his dial, but its Clarice using it to ring him. Other people are dialed on this phone. Oscar rang Justin Divaris himself.

and then that phone evaporates into thin air for quite some days..

I think we are going to hear about who called Pete three times around 4am, and who answered the phone when Pete called back because... the phone was turned off after that. Everything went to voicemail after those calls.

Roux specifically asked Moller in cross-examination if he was aware of who made/took the Pete Van Zyl calls and he stated no. Nel is going to ask.

My theory at the moment is that one of the things that Oscar did when he ran back upstairs (after Stander and Stipp went outside) was grab his phone. I believe that the blood spatter in the unexplained portions of the bedroom are from Oscar at that point.

 

[MeeBee]

I think we are going to hear about who called Pete three times around 4am, and who answered the phone when Pete called back because... the phone was turned off after that. Everything went to voicemail after those calls.

Roux specifically asked Moller in cross-examination if he was aware of who made/took the Pete Van Zyl calls and he stated no. Nel is going to ask.

My theory at the moment is that one of the things that Oscar did when he ran back upstairs (after Stander and Stipp went outside) was grab his phone. I believe that the blood spatter in the unexplained portions of the bedroom are from Oscar at that point.

BBM: that makes sense.

 

[Danta]

I was writing about the butt dial possibility a few days ago. What got me thinking about it was OP's call to his voice mail. At first I thought he could have been calling his voice mail because he was on the phone calling so many people between 3:18 and 3:55 that he may have had an incoming call from someone that he only left a voice message for.

03:18:45 – GPRS – 75 seconds

03:19:03 – Outgoing call to 2251 (Johan Stander) – 24 seconds

03:20:02 – GPRS – 79 seconds

03:20:05 – Outgoing call to 082911 (ambulance service) – 66 seconds

03:21:22 – GPRS – 61 seconds

03:21:33 – Outgoing call to 6797 (Baba, security) – 9 seconds

03:21:47 – Outgoing call to 121 (voicemail) – 7 seconds

03:22:05 – Incoming call from 6797 (Baba, security)

03:55:02 – Outgoing call to 8888 (Justin Devaris) – 123 seconds

Then during trial it was thought the voice mail call was a mistake.

I think 7 seconds is a long time to listen to a "mistake" call. If you look at your phone and count it out, it is long! Especially when you have other calls to make.

His use of the phone during those crucial moments is hard to fit in with the timeline of his carrying her, Reeva still being alive, and OP trying to save her at the bottom of the stairs when Dr. Stipp came in. Dr. Stipp's arrival came after all those phone calls. That whole time period is mush.

If he couldn't speak to Baba OP had already spoken to Stander and then when Baba did call back Oscar could speak again and told him things were OK. That is why I called the Baba phone call a butt dial, OP did not mean to call him.

 

[steveml]

I wonder, though if a Judge would go hunting back and forth to match records like that. If there is a point to make... Nel (or Roux) need to bring it to the Judge's attention. Since Nel has not (yet) made a point about internet access time shown in the wee small hours and linked that to a message or whatever, it probably never happened. I doubt the Judge will go hunting and doing forensic phone analysis for herself.

Me neither,

Not unless SA has a different way of doing things.

If the point hasn't already been made she could spend hours allowing a line of questioning to which she has no idea where it's leading.

I'm not aware she's able to introduce or direct either side towards evidence that hasn't already been discussed.

There could perhaps be the possibility the records could be used to confirm if it was either a call or text that was made, but that's about all I can think of.
I can't even see the Judge going that far to be honest. The trial would never move on. There would need to be less tea - and that isn't gonna happen. :coffeeup:

 

[Danta]

OP's phone tracking shows that the phone "left" at 8:00am. I think that if Clarice took the phone, because she lives so close to Oscar that it would still be pinging off the same tower and then 8:00am when she leaves, it is someone taking it out of the area of the tower.

 

[Trooper]

I think we are going to hear about who called Pete three times around 4am, and who answered the phone when Pete called back because... the phone was turned off after that. Everything went to voicemail after those calls.

Roux specifically asked Moller in cross-examination if he was aware of who made/took the Pete Van Zyl calls and he stated no. Nel is going to ask.

My theory at the moment is that one of the things that Oscar did when he ran back upstairs (after Stander and Stipp went outside) was grab his phone. I believe that the blood spatter in the unexplained portions of the bedroom are from Oscar at that point.

I am following you there with that sequence.. I dismiss the idea that he bought it with him carrying Reeva..

the only other times is the trip to open the door, he may have had his phone still clutched in his hand.. Clarices' little expedition, or the mystery trip.. it puzzles me that he left the gun still loaded ready to fire in the bathroom on that mystery trip.. I figure he didn't go into the bathroom, but then.. maybe to open the window for the story to stick.

 

[lisasalinger]

Good night, guys :seeya:

 

[Trooper]

OP's phone tracking shows that the phone "left" at 8:00am. I think that if Clarice took the phone, because she lives so close to Oscar that it would still be pinging off the same tower and then 8:00am when she leaves, it is someone taking it out of the area of the tower.

I had Clarice nailed for taking the phone if it wasn't for that ping at a tower distant from the one that was used from the house.


it doesn't mean that Clarice wasn't travelling with it.. but...

 

[Rumpole]

Me neither,

Not unless SA has a different way of doing things.

If the point hasn't already been made she could spend hours allowing a line of questioning to which she has no idea where it's leading.

I'm not aware she's able to introduce or direct either side towards evidence that hasn't already been discussed.

There could perhaps be the possibility the records could be used to confirm if it was either a call or text that was made, but that's about all I can think of.
I can't even see the Judge going that far to be honest. The trial would never move on. There would need to be less tea - and that isn't gonna happen. :coffeeup:

In addition... it's a stretch to imagine the Judge will be out to prove some point to make the State's case for them. She might equally go data snooping to prove a point for the defense. Of course none of that makes sense. The onus is on both sides to make some point and show the data that support it... or else they will miss out. The Judge is not going to be investigating for either side.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Such a shame Botha is getting to testify 1st. Surely just so Oscar can match his testimony and evidence. A fresher, secure template to work from.

Accused is MEANT to go 1st in SA law. Grrr.

People will then have Botha's testimony uppermost in their minds. And with Oscar's obvs responses/answers matching that, they're hoping he'll definitely appear innocent

Will OP then be able to speak properly despite vomiting? :blushing:

 

[nastasya]

Yes... premeditated self defense, IF you believe OP's version.

Premeditated, preemptive, aggressive self-defense.

And that's if your believe every word of the killer's story.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Notably, also no mention of the phrase, "This can't get out to the media," in Clarice's wee piece

I think, it was Mrs. Stander (not the daughter), who was concerned about media.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

No clue who he is and I agree that it doesn't necessarily mean anything.

When I originally watched that day I had noticed it and grabbed a screen shot. There is no identifying information about him and no mention of him in testimony, so I just held on to the pic and didn't think much about it. But then a poster here had asked about it today so I passed it along.

It could be nothing at all, maybe a friend, relative, etc.

I don't know him, it isn't the ex WL and not the ex FH and not her brother from UK (I think). But I remain curious! :smile:

 

[steveml]

https://twitter.com/EmmaSadleir

 

[steveml]

Quite a good diagram with simple explanation of the bathroom door findings here...

http://www.scribd.com/doc/212632720/Oscar-Pistorius-What-stories-wood-may-tell

 

[Interested Bystander]

I had Clarice nailed for taking the phone if it wasn't for that ping at a tower distant from the one that was used from the house.


it doesn't mean that Clarice wasn't travelling with it.. but...

Could OP's brother or sister have pocketed the phone when they arrived, I think, around 4am? I am sure he would have considered it safe with them. Maybe he secreted it in those voluminous shorts. I think they left at around 8am.

 

[steveml]

A point of view from an ex gf of OP...

Ex-girlfriend, Jenna Edkins, defended Pistorius on Twitter.
'All I am saying is let him speak, let his side be heard without jumping to conclusions,'

'I have dated Oscar on and off for 5 YEARS, NOT ONCE has he EVER lifted a finger to me or made me fear for my life.'


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/feb/15/oscar-pistorius-court-denies-murder


*the capitalization was from the tweet