Trial Discussion weekend Thread #24

[Viper]

"If Reeva had come out or spoken to me, I wouldn't have fired."

BIB. Oh no! That did not register in my mind until I just now saw it in writing. Not good, not good at all.

Thanks Zinn.

 

[AlwaysShocked]

There are clinical/forensic pathology sites online that give the parameters for things like onset of eye cloudiness, onset of rigor, etc.

The eye cloudiness can happen within 5 minutes because it is due to lack of blood flow. Rigor mortis is a whole different process, having to do with a breakdown and change of chemicals within the muscles. The 2 hour onset time is the correct one.

The facial grimace (not always seen) and jaw clenching are two different things.

Easy enough to look these up and get accurate info. Plus if one is interested in pathology, the websites are fascinating.

 

[Trooper]

Or earlier. Dr. Stipp was describing 'clenched jaw.' That's early rigor, IMO

He said her eyes were milky and had begun to dry out. That means she had been dead already for a period of time before he saw her.

Molly... .. Dr Stipp was at Oscars residence that early morning for one reason only .. he had heard Reeva being shot from the balcony on his home. He wouldn't have been there except for the gunfire and the screaming.. He didn't know Oscar from a bar of soap. He wasn't there on a social visit.

He knew exactly when the gunfire started before he got there. It was because of the gunfire that he went across to assist. He understood the exact implications of her head wound , her hip wound and her arm wound. He knew when that last shot had been fired, and what the approximate amount of time had elapsed.. 4 to 6 mins at the very outside.

 

[jassy writer]

Very good article here:

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blo...m_medium=twitter&mbid=social_twitter&mobify=0

 

[molly333]

Here we go. Pathologist says she died instantly. Therefore, she died in the toilet room.



Dr Saayman described how the bullet wounds to Steenkamp's head would have been almost instantly fatal, and that she would have likely breathed only a few times following that particular injury.

She would have likely breathed only a few times following that particular injury

Reading from his post-mortem report, Saayman was interrupted twice by Pistorius's weeping and gagging.



http://www.enca.com/south-africa/oscar-trial-pathologist-continues-testifying-day-7

 

[molly333]

Molly... .. Dr Stipp was at Oscars residence that early morning for one reason only .. he had heard Reeva being shot from the balcony on his home. He wouldn't have been there except for the gunfire and the screaming.. He didn't know Oscar from a bar of soap. He wasn't there on a social visit.

He knew exactly when the gunfire started before he got there. It was because of the gunfire that he went across to assist. He understood the exact implications of her head wound , her hip wound and her arm wound. He knew when that last shot had been fired, and what the approximate amount of time had elapsed.. 4 to 6 mins at the very outside.

The last shot? Or the last bang on the door?

Didn't he hear both sets of noises? And, weren't they separated by several minutes from each other?

 

[Freya1977]

Or earlier. Dr. Stipp was describing 'clenched jaw.' That's early rigor, IMO

He said her eyes were milky and had begun to dry out. That means she had been dead already for a period of time before he saw her.

No,not earlier. Sorry. It's just not scientifically accurate.

Yes she had a clenched jaw but not because of rigor mortis.

 

[steveml]

Yes that's your opinion but it's not scientifically informed. You are failing to understand that ANY rigor takes around two hours to set in. Full rigor takes longer. The small muscles display rigor soonest, at around 2 hour mark.

Are you trying to so she'd been dead almost 2 hours? Or even one hour? If so then all the witnesses are wrong about when the shooting and screaming occurred.

Did I say a dead body had a seizure? of course not. But the body can and does do all sorts of strange things during the dieing process, including clenching muscles such as jaw, fists etc. Especially a traumatic death.

Sorry but the science of death does not allow for rigor mortis in that time frame.

I agree.

I think even 2 hours is considered bare minimum for a human body.
There will always be the odd anomaly, and then the body would probably have be subject to abnormal temperatures and conditions.
Unlike the problem with analyzing digestion, rigor mortis follows a far more exact science, and has been subject to rigorous study.

 

[Viper]

Oh, and the dogs. Not watchdoggy enough.

Roux and OP did spend a lot of time trying to convince the court that OP is a kind hearted man that rescues animals a brings them to health and happiness, and also, the pitbulls were so severely damaged by their prior inhuman treatment that they were in fact equal to rabbits in their ability to protect and alert their master. :facepalm:

 

[Gbtaketwo]

BBM


The fact that OP had his arm on the wall for balance and leaned back against the wall makes perfect sense, whatever speed OP's traveling at.
Below the knee amputation often necessitates the need to hold or lean against something stable, especially once you stop moving.

Once he stops moving he is more than likely to sway. The swaying is further exaggerated by unclear vision or darkness. This is precisely why it is beyond reasonable doubt that OP could have targeted his shots to the head, or indeed anywhere, from where the PT were claiming. He either had to be leaning back for stability, or swaying.

The following link makes quite interesting reading :- link

So if he did have part of his back against the wall he could still have targeted .
The prosecution have stated that he did in the bail charge statement So am expecting them to bring this up with OP The defence will then no doubt address this also when their specialists take the stand to refute the prosecution's point of view .

 

[zwiebel]

I'm puzzled about something. Haven't read everything yet, but not seen this so far. Why does it destroy OP's version if the jeans are on top of the duvet (both on the floor)? What difference does it make? Is it just inconsistent in some way with his story? In what way?

I think because OP says the duvet was on Reeva's legs in bed, he pulled the fans in, then picked up the jeans to put them on the light but must have dropped them when he heard a noise. If they are on top of the duvet then, only Reeva could have thrown it there, when getting up to go to the toilet.

In which case you'd think OP would have noticed the duvet's suddenly on the floor under his feet, which would suggest to a reasonable person (I think) that Reeva had got out of bed and it slipped/she threw it as she did so?

 

[Freya1977]

I agree.

I think even 2 hours is considered bare minimum for a human body.
There will always be the odd anomaly, and then the body would probably have be subject to abnormal temperatures and conditions.
Unlike the problem with analyzing digestion, rigor mortis follows a far more exact science, and has been subject to rigorous study.

That's right...and the reason that such accurate time of death is able to be established. Cold can delay the onset of rigor, but there aren't a lot of other factors to take into account.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Molly... .. Dr Stipp was at Oscars residence that early morning for one reason only .. he had heard Reeva being shot from the balcony on his home. He wouldn't have been there except for the gunfire and the screaming.. He didn't know Oscar from a bar of soap. He wasn't there on a social visit.

He knew exactly when the gunfire started before he got there. It was because of the gunfire that he went across to assist. He understood the exact implications of her head wound , her hip wound and her arm wound. He knew when that last shot had been fired, and what the approximate amount of time had elapsed.. 4 to 6 mins at the very outside.

Is it Dr Stipp's that was pretty sure he had heard two sets of gunshots because he had been an army medic or something like that or was that someone else ,I get confused after a while

 

[molly333]

what I find odd is that report you quote from mentions the head wound and you ask if one doesn't find it odd that he doesn't mention it.

Dr Saaymans testimony was broadcast, it wasn't broadcast with a television picture.. just the voice.. this was , the court decided , graphic enough.

What I said was this article mentioned that the hip or arm wounds would have killed her by themselves from bleeding. I found another article [above] that says the brain wound was instantly fatal.

That's why there isn't more blood at the crime scene. She died instantly.

 

[Murphys_Law]

There is plenty of scientific literature available on "instantaneous rigor" and "trismus" (locked jaw/clenching) to support the notion that Reeva's early jaw clenching was a direct result of the manner in which she died.

https://www.google.ca/?gfe_rd=ctrl&...ws_rd=cr#q=instantaneous+rigor+trismus&spell=

In fact there is at least one case report of rigor setting in on a patient BERFORE he/she died due to a severe vasoconstriction of the blood supply
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j...5IHQAQ&usg=AFQjCNFU6VZL_ql5awTfzYlyFEB2oYFbsA

 

[shane13]

Here we go. Pathologist says she died instantly. Therefore, she died in the toilet room.



Dr Saayman described how the bullet wounds to Steenkamp's head would have been almost instantly fatal, and that she would have likely breathed only a few times following that particular injury.

She would have likely breathed only a few times following that particular injury

Reading from his post-mortem report, Saayman was interrupted twice by Pistorius's weeping and gagging.



http://www.enca.com/south-africa/oscar-trial-pathologist-continues-testifying-day-7

I saw that, and also found that he based his opinion [at least in part] on the lack of blood in her mouth or airways.

Of course, I for one am dubious on his testimony, because S.A. Constitution does not say the people have freedom of the press--unless Oscar Pistorius victim's death evidence is being shown. And everyday in their courts, other cases with more gruesome photos are not blocked from full press coverage.

Getting back to time of death, I wonder how rigorous this matter really is?

E.g., President Kennedy suffered a head shot at circa 12:30, but wasn't declared dead till 1 PM. A massive wound and massive, massive loss of brain matter occurred, yet his heart did beat for half an hour afterwards. There are significant differences [and it must have been 5-10 minutes before he was put on a respirator or such], but still it points out that a massive brain shot does not of itself have to cause immediate heart stoppage.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

In his testimony yesterday, OP very briefly mentioned - when explaining why he wasn't concerned the downstairs window hadn't been fixed immediately - that 'the latch couldn't be opened from the outside anyway'.

I'm wondering if the upstairs windows were the same, and if so, why he'd think he heard intruders sliding it open, from the outside?

That's a good point but no doubt OP would just say Reeva must have forgotten to lock it someone else is always responsible

 

[Val1]

So if he did have part of his back against the wall he could still have targeted .
The prosecution have stated that he did in the bail charge statement So am expecting them to bring this up with OP The defence will then no doubt address this also when their specialists take the stand to refute the prosecution's point of view .

Yea... I don't understand what reason would plausibly prevent OP from aiming his pistol, no bouncing back with any recoil and no amputee swaying either if he was pressed against the sink counter, plus he could quite possibly see through that large splinter he'd knocked out of the toilet door at that angle.

 

[Freya1977]

There is plenty of scientific literature available on "instantaneous rigor" and "trismus" (locked jaw/clenching) to support the notion that Reeva's early jaw clenching was a direct result of the manner in which she died.

https://www.google.ca/?gfe_rd=ctrl&...ws_rd=cr#q=instantaneous+rigor+trismus&spell=

In fact there is at least one case report of rigor setting in on a patient BERFORE he/she died due to a severe vasoconstriction of the blood supply
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j...5IHQAQ&usg=AFQjCNFU6VZL_ql5awTfzYlyFEB2oYFbsA

Instantaneous rigor and trismus are not the same as rigor mortis. Trismus is lock jaw and yes, that's exactly what she had. From the moment of death I would speculate - not because a period of time had elapsed and rigor had set in, as Molly is stating.



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[Gbtaketwo]

I think because OP says the duvet was on Reeva's legs in bed, he pulled the fans in, then picked up the jeans to put them on the light but must have dropped them when he heard a noise. If they are on top of the duvet then, only Reeva could have thrown it there, when getting up to go to the toilet.

In which case you'd think OP would have noticed the duvet's suddenly on the floor under his feet, which would suggest to a reasonable person (I think) that Reeva had got out of bed and it slipped/she threw it as she did so?

Did OP testify that he was going to put them over the led lights or that he had ?
The reason this would be important is because sometimes I have put clothes on a smooth surface and they fall of a few seconds or minutes after .
They could have fallen off with movement in the room .
I know there is blood on the duvet so am trying to figure out a possible sequence for all these things collectively ,without success so far .