Trial Discussion weekend Thread #24

[molly333]

Rigor doesn't begin in 20 to 30 minutes. It begins after around 2 hours, and full rigor isn't usually apparent till around TWELVE HOURS.

The 2 hour mark you are reading IS talking the beginning of rigor, not full rigor. Sorry to be a bore, but if you want to argue the facts....


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Did you read about the 'facial grimace' that the scene of death officers describe?

Sound like 'clenched jaw'?

 

[molly333]

Pros put on Dr Saayman, a forensic pathologist.
(Pronounced like Simon I believe.)

Thanks. I'll go try to find his testimony.

 

[Freya1977]

And the clenched jaw, the beginnings of rigor in the small facial muscles. That tells me she had been dead for a while. Two hours for full rigor--she wasn't there yet.

Where on earth did you read the 2 hours = full rigor? That's absolutely incorrect. As i stated in my other post, full rigor is reached after around 12 hours.

 

[steveml]

In his Blatent attempt to avoid justice, Oscar has been too greedy and made a clear attempt to get away with this with no jail time, he has simply made a huge error with the changes in his story, in his original affidavit the story he was trying to tell was very clear, he heard a noise, felt panic and terror, ran to the bathroom heard a noise in the toilet and fired shots, it was all done at great speed.
The new version is much more drawn out and implies he had much more thinking time and totally rubbish's the panic and terror of the original version, all of sudden he is calm enough to "whisper at Reeva", he is "slowly scuffling" down the hallway with his arm on the wall for balance, he even leans back against the bathroom wall before firing.

BBM


The fact that OP had his arm on the wall for balance and leaned back against the wall makes perfect sense, whatever speed OP's traveling at.
Below the knee amputation often necessitates the need to hold or lean against something stable, especially once you stop moving.

Once he stops moving he is more than likely to sway. The swaying is further exaggerated by unclear vision or darkness. This is precisely why it is beyond reasonable doubt that OP could have targeted his shots to the head, or indeed anywhere, from where the PT were claiming. He either had to be leaning back for stability, or swaying.

The following link makes quite interesting reading :- link

 

[Freya1977]

Rigor mortis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"In humans, it commences after about three to four hours, reaches maximum stiffness after 12 hours, and gradually dissipates from approximately 24 hours after death..."

Exactly. 2 hours for beginning stages is even stretching it.

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[shane13]

I did see one picture, but it was hard to tell the extent of the injury. Are you thinking she could have survived that injury for any amount of time? But, the doctor is describing rigor in the small muscles of the face, IMO. She had been dead for a period of time.

Again, I just looked up cloudy eyes--it said within 3 hours of death.

IIRC, Dr Stipp said her eyes had started to cloud over.

 

[Val1]

The prosecution did not put a Coroner or the equivalent on the stand? No blood spatter expert? wow. They are basing time of death on screams and shots and Oscar's testimony? wow.

But, didn't somebody talk about stomach contents?

Notice the doc says the eye had started to dry out--that's what causes the cloudy eyes. And the clenched jaw, the beginnings of rigor in the small facial muscles. That tells me she had been dead for a while. Two hours for full rigor--she wasn't there yet.

I would think Oscar would have had to have known she was dead when he opened that door. But, there's no accounting for denial and grief.

Yes they had a blood splatter expert etc but since none of that is conclusive as far as determining exact time of death it adds nothing to the battle between the defense and prosecution over which set of "bangs" caused RS's death. There's no question that OP killed RS, even he admits to that, it's all a chess game though as to whether he will get slapped on the wrist for an "accidental" or what many of us believe was a "pre-meditated" or "intended" killing.

 

[Freya1977]

Did you read about the 'facial grimace' that the scene of death officers describe?

Sound like 'clenched jaw'?

Yes, after around 2 hours

 

[zwiebel]

The prosecution did not put a Coroner or the equivalent on the stand? No blood spatter expert? wow. They are basing time of death on screams and shots and Oscar's testimony? wow.

But, didn't somebody talk about stomach contents?

Notice the doc says the eye had started to dry out--that's what causes the cloudy eyes. And the clenched jaw, the beginnings of rigor in the small facial muscles. That tells me she had been dead for a while. Two hours for full rigor--she wasn't there yet.

I would think Oscar would have had to have known she was dead when he opened that door. But, there's no accounting for denial and grief.

I thought there was a blood spatter expert. Someone definitely gave evidence about the spatter anyway, because I recall them showing (forget the actual term used) 'hair sweep' marks, from blood soaked hair touching the stair handrail. They were on the toilet bowl too.

 

[shane13]

Thanks. I'll go try to find his testimony.

Thanks, Molly.
Have you indicated that you have full transcripts or such?

 

[shane13]

Because the doctor declared Reeva dead, no pulse, no respiration, cloudy eyes, but, worse than that, when he described her jaw clenched on OP's fingers, he was describing rigor mortis. It takes a little bit of time for that, she had been dead for a while. What time was it when the doctor came on the scene?

Forgive me, but the formal declaration of death was by EMTs.

Dr Stipp though opined earlier, after checking her out, that resuscitation would be futile because [at least in part] "there's head wounds."

 

[Val1]

In his testimony yesterday, OP very briefly mentioned - when explaining why he wasn't concerned the downstairs window hadn't been fixed immediately - that 'the latch couldn't be opened from the outside anyway'.

I'm wondering if the upstairs windows were the same, and if so, why he'd think he heard intruders sliding it open, from the outside?

Careful, that rabbit hole is kinda deep...

Don't forget, that window was probably already open for a cross draft. It was so hot he fell asleep with the balcony doors open and if you look at the pics, there's looks to be a small wall that would provide a pretty easy step up to get to the balcony, no ladders or bath/toilet windows required, so imo the latches are yet just another embellishment to fit his terror filled "version".

 

[molly333]

Where on earth did you read the 2 hours = full rigor? That's absolutely incorrect. As i stated in my other post, full rigor is reached after around 12 hours.

For full rigor to start--for the big muscles to be affected.

 

[Val1]

Pros put on Dr Saayman, a forensic pathologist.
(Pronounced like Simon I believe.)

Colonel van der Nest was the blood splatter guy.

 

[molly333]

Thanks, Molly.
Have you indicated that you have full transcripts or such?

It looks like his testimony wasn't broadcast? I found this:



Pathologist Gert Saayman told the court that Reeva Steenkamp was shot three times, in the head, hip and arm.

The judge had earlier banned live broadcast of the post-mortem examination testimony.


The pathologist described how the wounds on Ms Steenkamp's body were consistent with bullets being fired through a wooden object such as a door.

The wounds to her arm and hip could have killed her because of the extent of the bleeding, Mr Saayman said.

He added that the bullets used were a "black talon" type, designed to cause maximum tissue damage.

The pathologist also said that Ms Steenkamp had eaten within two hours of being killed.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-26510897



This doesn't even mention the head wound. He says the hip or arm wounds would have killed her from bleeding out. Don't you find that odd?

 

[Viper]

I have been very puzzled why Oscar just threw that comment about Dr Stipp into his testimony.. it came out of the blue, and seemed to have no possible rhyme or reason for it.. an unguarded moment?? a long held conviction? a figure of speech?? cranky with Dr Stipp for testifying re womanly screaming?? a slur on radiologists in general? offended because Dr Stipp was an uninvited 'guest'? an attempt to place the blame on Dr Stipp for Reevas death due to medical malpractice??

I just don't know.

OP has been doing that a lot. Yesterday when he talked about the wood noise he threw in that the WC door was poorly fitted so it makes a wood noise when it is opened or closed, leading him to conclude that it was opening. Regarding the bedroom doors being locked he added that he used a cricket bat to brace them because although they were solid wood they were brittle and wound swell from humidity and get stuck closed, to explain away them being barged through and badly damaged. The LED light was just too bright so he was covering it with Reeva's jeans., to explain why the jeans are there and add more color to his story. Huh, we could fill pages and pages with this stuff. But the negative comment about Dr. Stipp's medical skill was added for a reason and not just because OP is angry with his testimony. Perhaps because he said that Reeva was dead when he first saw her; OP has wanted the story to be that he was heroically trying to save Reeva's life and she died downstairs not that she was dead when he brought her down and he was playing a charade with her dead body.

 

[molly333]

Yes, after around 2 hours

Or earlier. Dr. Stipp was describing 'clenched jaw.' That's early rigor, IMO

He said her eyes were milky and had begun to dry out. That means she had been dead already for a period of time before he saw her.

 

[shane13]

Colonel van der Nest was the blood splatter guy.

Indeeed, but she asked for coroner or such in 1 post --closest thing is the forensic pathologist.

Who BTW, I thought had more integrity than DT FP. I did not like the way he basically said the time of last meal eaten parameter was worthless. [In other words.]

If he had said that PT's pathologist quote of 2 hrs before death for the last meal should be given as a range of times--say 1-3 hours, I would have respected his "science.'

But he did not do that, and basically concluded the last meal parameter was worthless.

 

[Trooper]

It looks like his testimony wasn't broadcast? I found this:



Pathologist Gert Saayman told the court that Reeva Steenkamp was shot three times, in the head, hip and arm.

The judge had earlier banned live broadcast of the post-mortem examination testimony.


The pathologist described how the wounds on Ms Steenkamp's body were consistent with bullets being fired through a wooden object such as a door.

The wounds to her arm and hip could have killed her because of the extent of the bleeding, Mr Saayman said.

He added that the bullets used were a "black talon" type, designed to cause maximum tissue damage.

The pathologist also said that Ms Steenkamp had eaten within two hours of being killed.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-26510897



This doesn't even mention the head wound. He says the hip or arm wounds would have killed her from bleeding out. Don't you find that odd?

what I find odd is that report you quote from mentions the head wound and you ask if one doesn't find it odd that he doesn't mention it.

Dr Saaymans testimony was broadcast, it wasn't broadcast with a television picture.. just the voice.. this was , the court decided , graphic enough.

 

[BlueShoe]

I'm puzzled about something. Haven't read everything yet, but not seen this so far. Why does it destroy OP's version if the jeans are on top of the duvet (both on the floor)? What difference does it make? Is it just inconsistent in some way with his story? In what way?