Trial Discussion weekend Thread #24

[molly333]

See my previous post. You aren't correct. She had trismus as a result of her manner of death, NOT rigor mortis.

Think again. Instant onset rigor mortis:


•Physical exertion just prior to death: If someone dies while engaged in strenuous activity like exercising or struggling against drowning, rigor mortis can set in immediately. This instant onset, sometimes called cadaveric spasm, happens because the person's muscles, at the moment of death, were depleted of oxygen energy and ATP. This is why the victim of a violent attack may still be clutching the attacker's hair or a piece of clothing.

http://health.howstuffworks.com/diseases-conditions/death-dying/rigor-mortis-cause2.htm

 

[Val1]

Not everyone's heart stops beating the moment they receive a gunshot to the head. That's an undisputed fact. Plenty of people survive a gunshot to the head.

Gabrielle Giffords springs to mind...

 

[steveml]

So if he did have part of his back against the wall he could still have targeted .
The prosecution have stated that he did in the bail charge statement So am expecting them to bring this up with OP The defence will then no doubt address this also when their specialists take the stand to refute the prosecution's point of view .

I don't think it's at all possible to target through a solid wood door, in darkness, with or without the use of prosthesis. There's been some suggestion of apparently tracking a persons voice.
Previous examples of this have not been shown, and if they were I'd expect it to be somewhere in Hollywood...on a dvd.

You're correct, in the bail charge the PT claimed he fired 4 times at the basin, and had attached his prosthesis.

The PT can only have deduced the aiming and potential target of the bullets by presuming OP was using his prosthesis. The fact that they admit that this is now incorrect, suggests that it would be extremely difficult to now claim that the trajectory of the bullets remain the same, and OP was still targeting a specific point.

:smile:

 

[Viper]

Not everyone's heart stops beating the moment they receive a gunshot to the head. That's an undisputed fact. Plenty of people survive a gunshot to the head.

Why not just accept the words of the doctor that did her autopsy? He said that after receiving the shot to her head Reeva died with 2-3 last breaths. The defense pathologist did not disagree.

 

[weeeva]

Generally discrediting him? Does not like Dr. Stipp's description of OP's hand in Reeva's mouth? Is OP going to deny the trip upstairs that Dr. Stipp saw (the pre-ID trip)?

MOO

Was there a pre-ID trip?
I can't remember this being mentioned. If there was such a trip would the prosecution not have dealt with it already?

 

[molly333]

I don't believe I am that person that you speak of, but plastic bags in a crime scene are used to clean up and/or prevent the car seat or car trunk (boot) from getting blood stained when the body is moved.

Reeva was dead in the WC, her bleeding stopped in 2-3 seconds of receiving all of those horrific injuries, her right arm was for all intensive purposes amputated (bone and artery severed, very little tissue left connecting it to her torso), her hip and head had massive holes. If Reeva's heart had been pumping for even a minutes time the WC would have been flooded with massive amounts of blood flowing from the 5 massive holes in her body.

Yep. Those garbage bags were not for a tourniquet. She wasn't bleeding [except passively] because her heart was no longer beating.

Do you think they had to have known she was dead?

 

[Gryffindor]

The ropes, bags, tape etc were for tourniquet substitutes. Nothing sinister. Saayman's testimony on post mortem wasn't broadcast, audio or visual. Reports were later:
allowed to summarise his findings.

 

[Gryffindor]

Reeva hadn't been laid down on the duvet either. There were 3 spots of blood, comparable to droplets from a minor nosebleed.

 

[molly333]

The ropes, bags, tape etc were for tourniquet substitutes. Nothing sinister. Saayman's testimony on post mortem wasn't broadcast, audio or visual. Reports were later:
allowed to summarise his findings.

Tourniquet for a severed arm? Viper says her arm was almost severed.

Her heart wasn't beating. She wasn't bleeding.

Were these people in La-la-land?

 

[Freya1977]

Think again. Instant onset rigor mortis:


•Physical exertion just prior to death: If someone dies while engaged in strenuous activity like exercising or struggling against drowning, rigor mortis can set in immediately. This instant onset, sometimes called cadaveric spasm, happens because the person's muscles, at the moment of death, were depleted of oxygen energy and ATP. This is why the victim of a violent attack may still be clutching the attacker's hair or a piece of clothing.

http://health.howstuffworks.com/diseases-conditions/death-dying/rigor-mortis-cause2.htm

So now you're saying it's instantaneous rigor (which is exactly what I originally said), not that she'd been dead long enough for rigor mortis to set in, as you originally argued?

Instantaneous rigor is basically a muscle spasm or cramp at or around the time of death (perimortem).

You can link as many "how stuff works" links as you like but it's not the same thing as rigor mortis, however it can be confused with rigor mortis.

FYI: I'm a mortician by profession, you don't need to educate me on the process of death.

Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk

 

[steveml]

As you have snipped my post, w.o. even stating you did this, I willl not reply.
This is strictly against the rules.
And I also don't appreciate the sarcasm. That too is against the rules.

I apologise if you feel offended. The part of your post I indicated does not misrepresent your post in any way, but I have no problem with your request.

My reply to you wss not sarcastic, it's was a question.

In future, if you have any posting issues, please inform a moderator as per the CoC.

Thank you.

 

[Gryffindor]

Tourniquet for a severed arm? Viper says her arm was almost severed.

Her heart wasn't beating. She wasn't bleeding.

Were these people in La-la-land?

That's what was stated. So I'll go with the official facts, not rumour or fantasy

 

[wb180]

As you have snipped my post, w.o. even stating you did this, I willl not reply.
This is strictly against the rules.
And I also don't appreciate the sarcasm. That too is against the rules.

Don't get too upset with armchair experts

For me, OP's testimony is already totally unreliable so we just need to see if we have enough evidence right now or Nel can crack OP to tell the truth.

 

[Viper]

I'm puzzled about something. Haven't read everything yet, but not seen this so far. Why does it destroy OP's version if the jeans are on top of the duvet (both on the floor)? What difference does it make? Is it just inconsistent in some way with his story? In what way?

BIB. Because it means that the duvet was bunched up on the floor while he was bringing in the fans, closing the door the blinds and the curtains, and while he picked up the jeans to cover the LED light; it is at the jeans moment that he hears the bathroom window opening and he drops the jeans to go commando. He had previously stated that the duvet was on the bed and covering Reeva's legs.

OPs story is such carp!

 

[Trooper]

Tourniquet for a severed arm? Viper says her arm was almost severed.

Her heart wasn't beating. She wasn't bleeding.

Were these people in La-la-land?

Could you specify which people you are referring to re la la land?

thanks..

 

[molly333]

So now you're saying it's instantaneous rigor (which is exactly what I originally said), not that she'd been dead long enough for rigor mortis to set in, as you originally argued?

Instantaneous rigor is basically a muscle spasm or cramp at or around the time of death (perimortem).

You can link as many "how stuff works" links as you like but it's not the same thing as rigor mortis, however it can be confused with rigor mortis.

FYI: I'm a mortician by profession, you don't need to educate me on the process of death.

Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk

Look Call it anything you want. The doc knew she was dead and had been dead for a while, IMO.

But, consider this. We know rigor will show up first in small muscles of the face. This article is saying that the muscles are already depleted of oxygen, energy, and ATP at time of death when there is a violent death so you will see early effects of rigor.

Was this a violent death? Was there fighting beforehand? Physical running, chasing, heart beating in fear?

Does 1 and 1 make 3? Or 2?

 

[Murphys_Law]

Was there a pre-ID trip?
I can't remember this being mentioned. If there was such a trip would the prosecution not have dealt with it already?

it was mentioned in Dr. Stipp's testimony.
btw, the prosecution is just getting warmed up ...expect to see OP on the stand for many more days. there is a vast amount of evidence yet to be explored. Given that Nel has not completed the bedroom, there is still the passage way artifacts, the destruction in the main bathroom, the toilette door, the cricket bat, the jeans outside the bathroom window, the bedroom door, the inexplicable damage to OP's prosthetic legs, the trip to the Mamelodi medical centre, the first few phone calls, the internet/whatsapp connections and much more to be sorted out while OP is on the stand.

 

[james83]

So...he wanted Reeva dead so he shot her. Then he tried to make it look like he didn't want her dead by breaking the door and rescuing her.
Once rescued she was dead, so he thought he'd again make it look like he was trying to save her. But it was all a cover-up, as he wanted her dead anyway?

Have I got this right? :dunno:

Don't get why that is so hard to understand, he shoots her in a rage and then realises what's he done and then realises the implications, so of course he is going to act like he want's to save her, what would you expect him to do?, just leave her in the toilet and hope no one notices?.

 

[Freya1977]

Tourniquet for a severed arm? Viper says her arm was almost severed.

Her heart wasn't beating. She wasn't bleeding.

Were these people in La-la-land?

What's strange about a tourniquet for a severed arm? And you don't know if she was bleeding or not, frankly.



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[wb180]

The ropes, bags, tape etc were for tourniquet substitutes. Nothing sinister. Saayman's testimony on post mortem wasn't broadcast, audio or visual. Reports were later:
allowed to summarise his findings.

How do you know this or just your opinion?