Trial Discussion weekend Thread #24

[molly333]

Could you specify which people you are referring to re la la land?

thanks..

Oscar and the two friends who were helping him when the doc and security showed up.

 

[steveml]

Look Call it anything you want. The doc knew she was dead and had been dead for a while, IMO.

But, consider this. We know rigor will show up first in small muscles of the face. This article is saying that the muscles are already depleted of oxygen, energy, and ATP at time of death when there is a violent death so you will see early effects of rigor.

Was this a violent death? Was there fighting beforehand? Physical running, chasing, heart beating in fear?

Does 1 and 1 make 3? Or 2?

That's correct, it starts there, eyelids and small areas first, but not usually until the first couple of hours.

 

[molly333]

What's strange about a tourniquet for a severed arm? And you don't know if she was bleeding or not, frankly.



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Once you are dead, you don't bleed, except maybe passively as blood settles.

She died instantly in the toilet room.

 

[soozieqtips]

That's what was stated. So I'll go with the official facts, not rumour or fantasy

So how do you deal with the official fact that OP had to have pulled the trigger when the gun went off in the restaurant? Do you believe that he didn't have his finger on the trigger and that the gun miraculously discharged itself?

 

[Val1]

That's what was stated. So I'll go with the official facts, not rumour or fantasy

OP's words are now fact?:waitasec:

 

[wb180]

Once you are dead, you don't bleed, except maybe passively as blood settles.

She died instantly in the toilet room.

If that is the case then it shows OP's bail story version is wrong (again).

 

[Gryffindor]

How do you know this or just your opinion?

Someone's testimony in early days. Can't recall who. Possibly Stipp IIRC.

 

[steveml]

The ropes, bags, tape etc were for tourniquet substitutes. Nothing sinister. Saayman's testimony on post mortem wasn't broadcast, audio or visual. Reports were later:
allowed to summarise his findings.

I don't know much about this at all...but plastic bags are mentioned at no.25 on this list :- link

 

[Viper]

Yep. Those garbage bags were not for a tourniquet. She wasn't bleeding [except passively] because her heart was no longer beating.

Do you think they had to have known she was dead?

BIB. Yes, not a doubt in my mind. OP would have seen this as soon as he opened the door. I believe he used the distal tip of the cricket bat to "nudge" her to see if she would move or make a sound, that is why the tip had the odd looking diagonal blood pattern. I think that after ascertaining that Reeva was dead OP left her there and went off in a panic to do damage control, the best that his tiny intelligence could afford him anyway, mostly just thinking of an excuse and calling a friend to run interference or help minimize the severity of what he had done.

 

[Freya1977]

Look Call it anything you want. The doc knew she was dead and had been dead for a while, IMO.

But, consider this. We know rigor will show up first in small muscles of the face. This article is saying that the muscles are already depleted of oxygen, energy, and ATP at time of death when there is a violent death so you will see early effects of rigor.

Was this a violent death? Was there fighting beforehand? Physical running, chasing, heart beating in fear?

Does 1 and 1 make 3? Or 2?

Molly you're apparently an expert on blood spatter, establishing time and cause of death, and also the chemical processes within the body after death. I apologize if my correcting you re: onset times of rigor mortis has offended you. There's no need to be so defensive.

Your initial argument was that enough time had passed as to allow rigor mortis to set in. I corrected you by saying it was instead a perimortem artifact due to her manner of death.

I'm not looking to argue with someone based on random Google searches.

 

[Trooper]

The ropes, bags, tape etc were for tourniquet substitutes. Nothing sinister. Saayman's testimony on post mortem wasn't broadcast, audio or visual. Reports were later:
allowed to summarise his findings.

my apologies, Gryf... what I meant was, his testimony wasn't held in camera.. that is in a private setting , behind closed doors.. it was from the witness stand in front of the court and gallery . .it wasn't broadcast to the general public at the time, it was summarized very shortly after, yes..

 

[molly333]

So...he wanted Reeva dead so he shot her. Then he tried to make it look like he didn't want her dead by breaking the door and rescuing her.
Once rescued she was dead, so he thought he'd again make it look like he was trying to save her. But it was all a cover-up, as he wanted her dead anyway?

Have I got this right? :dunno:

That is what it is starting to look like to me [ I hate to say it].

If he thinks he killed an intruder, why pry him out of the bathroom?

If he thinks he shot Reeva, why not call for help first and then pry open the bathroom door.

Maybe Reeva ran out of the house and is safe.

FIRST THING YOU DO WHEN THE THREAT IS CONTAINED--no matter what--CALL FOR HELP.

Did he ever call for help?

 

[Gryffindor]

I don't know much about this at all...but plastic bags are mentioned at no.25 on this list :- link

Cheers Steve

 

[steveml]

Don't get why that is so hard to understand, he shoots her in a rage and then realises what's he done and then realises the implications, so of course he is going to act like he want's to save her, what would you expect him to do?, just leave her in the toilet and hope no one notices?.

Nope, but I wouldn't expect him to bring her to the doorway in full view of any tom, dick or harry that could walk in at any moment.

 

[Emz73]

For full rigor to start--for the big muscles to be affected.

I think the poster is trying to tell you ANY rigor to start. The changes in the chemicals that start the rigor doesn't happen until AT LEAST 2 hours has past.
The body does strange things when a person takes their last breath, everything starts to leak (not sure when this starts), muscles can clench, legs/arms can move, jaws can clench, eyes can be open.

Sorry to be graphic.

 

[Gryffindor]

my apologies, Gryf... what I meant was, his testimony wasn't held in camera.. that is in a private setting , behind closed doors.. it was from the witness stand in front of the court and gallery . .it wasn't broadcast to the general public at the time, it was summarized very shortly after, yes..

No worries, lovey x

 

[Freya1977]

Why not just accept the words of the doctor that did her autopsy? He said that after receiving the shot to her head Reeva died with 2-3 last breaths. The defense pathologist did not disagree.

I was more referring to the comment regarding Molly's disbelief about JFK

 

[soozieqtips]

That is what it is starting to look like to me [ I hate to say it].

If he thinks he killed an intruder, why pry him out of the bathroom?

If he thinks he shot Reeva, why not call for help first and then pry open the bathroom door.

Maybe Reeva ran out of the house and is safe.

FIRST THING YOU DO WHEN THE THREAT IS CONTAINED--no matter what--CALL FOR HELP.

Did he ever call for help?

BBM - He most certainly did. Help for himself.

 

[Trooper]

in all fairness, as Roux would say.. he was only expecting Standar... ... that's who he opened the door for.. and who's to say he flung it wide open?? he may have just unlocked it, he hasn't said yet..

Certainly , Baba ( who he told everything was ok ) and Stipp were most unexpected arrivals..

 

[steveml]

That is what it is starting to look like to me [ I hate to say it].

If he thinks he killed an intruder, why pry him out of the bathroom?

If he thinks he shot Reeva, why not call for help first and then pry open the bathroom door.

Maybe Reeva ran out of the house and is safe.

FIRST THING YOU DO WHEN THE THREAT IS CONTAINED--no matter what--CALL FOR HELP.

Did he ever call for help?

That's the very first thing he did Molly. Once he knew Reeva was in there and couldn't open the door, he ran to the balcony and screamed for help.