Trial Discussion weekend Thread #24

[jay-jay]

Nope, but I wouldn't expect him to bring her to the doorway in full view of any tom, dick or harry that could walk in at any moment.

.. and yet OP reckons he was just about to bundle her into a car and drive her to the hospital .. I think quite a few 'tom, dick and harrys' would've seen her on the way, if he was about to do that!

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Originally Posted by steveml View Post
[snipped]


So... after the first shot he wanted Reeva dead so he shot her another 3 times. Then he had to prove whether Reeva would be dead, for himself to be safe,(tried to make it look like he didn't want her dead) by breaking the door (and rescuing her.)
Once "rescued" she was still dead, so he thought he'd (again) make it look like he was trying to save her. But it was all a cover-up, as he wanted her dead anyway?

I was creative in my sense. Thank you for the template! :smile:

 

[jilly]

I don't personally think he is paranoid with regard to people conspiring against him .. I don't believe he thinks they are conspiring against him at all .. it's basically just that he keeps on using things like 'police contamination' in order to make his own version of events stick .. he is using things like that as part of his one big fat lie, he doesn't actually believe that is what they are doing (i.e. conspiring against him). Again, this is all part of the thing where truth is becoming mixed up with fiction, and because we don't really know which bits are true and which bits aren't, we end up trying to find reasons for things which are actually a lie in the first place and don't even really exist, and therefore don't even need analyzing. OP is not paranoid in any way, shape or form, imo .. he isn't paranoid about the threat of intruders or being attacked, because all of his supporting stories on that are made up and he isn't paranoid about people conspiring against him either, because his accusations against those people are only in order to cover up his lies.

Agree. Just like he testified yesterday that he couldn't hear Reba scream because of his ears ringing and in particular the decibels of the gunshots making it impossible for him to hear.
I'm expecting that he's taken that from an upcoming witness for the defense.

 

[jay-jay]

Even although Baba's never been inside his house.

I'll continue to take Oscar's word for most things.

Really?

 

[soozieqtips]

I don't personally think he is paranoid with regard to people conspiring against him .. I don't believe he thinks they are conspiring against him at all .. it's basically just that he keeps on using things like 'police contamination' in order to make his own version of events stick .. he is using things like that as part of his one big fat lie, he doesn't actually believe that is what they are doing (i.e. conspiring against him). Again, this is all part of the thing where truth is becoming mixed up with fiction, and because we don't really know which bits are true and which bits aren't, we end up trying to find reasons for things which are actually a lie in the first place and don't even really exist, and therefore don't even need analyzing. OP is not paranoid in any way, shape or form, imo .. he isn't paranoid about the threat of intruders or being attacked, because all of his supporting stories on that are made up and he isn't paranoid about people conspiring against him either, because his accusations against those people are only in order to cover up his lies.

I don't think he's paranoid either, but in order for anyone to believe his story, all the witnesses must be out to frame him for murder... for no apparent reason!

 

[TrueDetective]

In OP’s defense (as to why he did or didn't do things if the events unfolded in the way he said that they did) I have to say that unless you have lived through a moment in life that is horrific and sudden, requiring immediate action, you cannot be sure how you would respond. I have and when I called 911 I could not remember my address. What you do and what you know you would do under extreme stress is not always so simple under certain circumstances.

I don’t know what happened in that house, only two people do, OP and RS. It appears that Oscar’s version does not fit the crime scene photos. His hot temper, immediate fight response, and his histrionics lead me to believe he could have killed her in a blind range, I also believe it could have been an accident. He could have gone into full “recon” and shot into the toilet, even if he heard Reeva screaming, he could have been in such a manic state that the reality of Reeva being behind the door was not an option in his mind. Blind with fear or rage?

He is not a very intelligent man. I can see a scenario where he thought there was an intruder in the bathroom, went into kill or be killed mode and then discovered the tragic results.

I don’t think that the evidence thus far has proved either theory. OP’s dramatics, (real, fake, for himself or Reeva, have not served him well) his statements such as “I wish Reeva had told me it was her” make him look like a cold hearted killer that is blaming Reeva for her own death. That said, “I wish Reeva had told me it was her” could be interpreted in a charitable light for OP, as in a remorseful wishful tone.

OP is admittedly not a very bright bulb, he is an extremely emotional guy and trying to judge him under his having killed Reeva and the constraints of courtroom decorum is difficult at best.

Is he a cold blooded killer trying to save his own or is he a rather dull witted, paranoid hot headed, immature, boy man who has never had to take responsibility for his bad behavior who made an adrenaline fueled fatal mistake and tried to cover it up by making himself seem less culpable than he was? I haven’t made up my mind.

As to the restaurant gun incident, there is something deeply wrong and troubling with a man who shot a gun and insists that his finger was not on the trigger and it somehow magically went off. He is saying this in court, in front of a judge that will decide his fate, he really does remind me of a small child with a cookie in his mouth who insists to the point of throwing a tantrum that he did not put the cookie in his own mouth.

A bizarre man.

A very interesting and intelligent character study. I would go with the BIB description. His natural arrogance and confidence has no doubt been battered by the emotional strain and mental health issues he will have encountered since the killing. So he is fighting against it, impressively but ultimately very unsuccessfully.
His belief in his own ability and his determination ("I always win") is mighty and is clearly the reason he became the athlete/celebrity he did but the smugness of the untouchable superstar has now soured and become almost pure delusion.

 

[steveml]

There's this thing called 'the golden hour.' One hour to get a severe trauma to the emergency room, maybe less but not more.

First thing to do : call an ambulance.

I agree with that, but I'm thinking in terms of this specific incident.

If we recap, until OP gets that door open he doesn't know what's happened. He doesn't know if Reeva's dead, alive or fell to the floor unconscious. He doesn't know where the bullets have gone inside that toilet or how many may have hit. He has no information to tell the emergency services at that stage. This is why my primary concern would be to get the door open, see where the bullets have gone and and try to stem any immediate bleeding.

This only applies if OP didn't hear Reeva screaming, which is his claim.

If he had heard Reeva screaming, then he'd notice that the screaming had stopped, and would presume he had killed, or at the very least seriously wounded Reeva. In that scenario it wouldn't matter when he made the call.

 

[jay-jay]

Does that include the magic gun going off without his finger on the trigger? His 'word' has been proven to be lies for 'most' things so far - and Nel hasn't even got started. I'm glad he is fighting for Reeva. After all, it was her life that ended in a toilet after being shot by someone we now know was thoroughly unpleasant, highly volatile, a liar, immoral, thought nothing of shooting a dog in the back of the head (without saying a word to the owner), accuses his DT for his inaccurate affidavit, his friends of lying, the police for not showing him 'courtesy' when dealing with his firearm in the car, the list is too long to complete. But one thing I know, is he's a nasty piece of work, and if it was anyone other than him, no one would give him the time of day. Famous people are just people with more money than the rest of us. They're not saints. And plenty of them have murdered.

ETA - I also recall you copying and pasting a bunch of abusive tweets about Reeva, but nothing negative about OP. Is that because there was nothing negative to find about him?

Yes, I do too .. I don't personally know why anyone would take any notice of what a troll on twitter says, much less start believing what they are saying. These trolls can be absolutely anyone, and as I've said before, I wouldn't even give them the time of day.

 

[sorrell skye]

Yep, but there are two issues:
1. If Reeva was shot at 3:16/3:17 a.m. by OP, did he call Stander and Netcare BEFORE he broke the door down? Otherwise, really tight timeframe (not impossible) to put on his prosthetics and then break the door down and then call Stander.

2. After the Netcare call it was around 3:25 a.m. If he hadn't yet broken the door down, it leaves a very small window before Stander/Dr. Stipp arrives.

I suspect they would have got there around 3:45 a.m. which makes the above very possible.

According to phone logs, the 2nd set of bangs occurred shortly before 3:15:51a.m., as that is the time Dr. Stipp finally got through to estate security (after hearing 2nd set of bangs).

Before calling Stander and Netcare, OP put on his legs & pried the panels out of the toilet door.

OP called Stander at 3:19:03. That call lasted 24 seconds.

OP called Netcare at 3:20:05. That call lasted 66 seconds.

OP testified that he then went downstairs to unlock the front door, returned upstairs to carry Reeva downstairs.

3:21:33 outgoing call to Baba (estate security) lasted 9 seconds, during which OP did not speak. Baba thought he heard OP crying. That call was likely made by mistake.

3:22:05 Baba pulled up in front of OP's house, called OP. OP said "everything is fine" and hung up.

Shortly after, Baba said that Stander and his daughter pulled up in front of OP's house.

Stander, Stander's daughter Clarice, Baba, and another security guard raced to OP's front door. They saw OP on the landing of the stairs holding Reeva, and then saw OP carry Reeva down the stairs.

HTH

 

[jilly]

I don't think he's paranoid either, but in order for anyone to believe his story, all the witnesses must be out to frame him for murder... for no apparent reason!

Yup. They're either lying or as you say framing him. Everyone! I have never seen anything like this. Vomitting, crying, confrontational, whining like an old woman and lying. He should have had psychological treatment years ago.

 

[james83]

Lets remember Oscar's story about being shot at whilst driving when after the incident he can't remember who he called for help or who came and picked him up:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:
Really?.
With that clearly made up story he has shown the judge he is willing to get up on the stand and lie under oath, what does she make of that i wonder?.

 

[clearskies1]

Yes, there was .. while Dr Stipp was there (Stipp was concerned that OP may have been going upstairs to fetch his gun and top himself) but before the paramedics arrived (they are the ones who asked for ID).



They haven't quite got to this point yet .. it's coming soon though ..!

Since OP didn't testify to the pre-ID trip on direct I've got to think he will either deny it (more likely) or say he has no recollection of it.

MOO

 

[nastasya]

BIB. Yes, not a doubt in my mind. OP would have seen this as soon as he opened the door. I believe he used the distal tip of the cricket bat to "nudge" her to see if she would move or make a sound, that is why the tip had the odd looking diagonal blood pattern. I think that after ascertaining that Reeva was dead OP left her there and went off in a panic to do damage control, the best that his tiny intelligence could afford him anyway, mostly just thinking of an excuse and calling a friend to run interference or help minimize the severity of what he had done.

The human heart pumps about 5 liters per minute. The human body only contains about 5 liters of blood.

The arteries in her right arm were severed. According to OP's timeline, she would have bled out long before he carried her down the steps 10 minutes after shooting her.

There would be no arterial blood splatter anywhere except the toilet stall.

He bashed the door first - screams- shot her - pulled out the pieces of the door - made calls - carried her down the steps

I put it to you, <modsnip>, to explain how the arterial blood splatter got on the walls and the couch downstairs if Reeva had been shot through the arm 10 minutes earlier. Why were there no large pools of blood in the bathroom? OP's timeline is physically impossible.

 

[TrueDetective]

Can it be proved that he didn't fire off some shots around 3 am, off the balcony or out of the window? Either out of temper or to frighten Reeva.

Yep, but there are two issues:
1. If Reeva was shot at 3:16/3:17 a.m. by OP, did he call Stander and Netcare BEFORE he broke the door down? Otherwise, really tight timeframe (not impossible) to put on his prosthetics and then break the door down and then call Stander.

2. After the Netcare call it was around 3:25 a.m. If he hadn't yet broken the door down, it leaves a very small window before Stander/Dr. Stipp arrives.

I suspect they would have got there around 3:45 a.m. which makes the above very possible.

I'm not sure where you're getting this 3.45am from. I thought it was pretty clear that Standers then Stipp got there very quickly eg shortly after 3.20am

 

[soozieqtips]

I agree with that, but I'm thinking in terms of this specific incident.

If we recap, until OP gets that door open he doesn't know what's happened. He doesn't know if Reeva's dead, alive or fell to the floor unconscious. He doesn't know where the bullets have gone inside that toilet or how many may have hit. He has no information to tell the emergency services at that stage. This is why my primary concern would be to get the door open, see where the bullets have gone and and try to stem any immediate bleeding.

This only applies if OP didn't hear Reeva screaming, which is his claim.

If he had heard Reeva screaming, then he'd notice that the screaming had stopped, and would presume he had killed, or at the very least seriously wounded Reeva. In that scenario it wouldn't matter when he made the call.

BBM - he didn't try and stem anything. He just sat there with her for at least 5 minutes and did nothing. He never claimed to have stemmed any bleeding, but he did claim that he sat there and cried. So at that point, he did absolutely nothing for a period of 5 minutes. Then, for some strange reason, he decides to try and resuscitate her later when he's bringing her down the stairs. He doesn't try this as soon as possible after dragging her into the bathroom. No. He waits till he's on his way downstairs. Make any sense? Forget that he's supposedly on his way out to the hospital with her, because he still stops to try and resuscitate her. So why not do it in the bathroom as soon as he was able to 'assist' her?

 

[soozieqtips]

Yes, I do too .. I don't personally know why anyone would take any notice of what a troll on twitter says, much less start believing what they are saying. These trolls can be absolutely anyone, and as I've said before, I wouldn't even give them the time of day.

I found it a little odd that none of the abusive tweets were about OP at all... just the abusive ones about Reeva were posted here.

 

[james83]

I'm not sure where you're getting this 3.45am from. I thought it was pretty clear that Standers then Stipp got there very quickly eg shortly after 3.20am

Seems likely that The Stander's and Baba arrived around 3.26 and Stipp around 3.28.

 

[steveml]

Well actually, although I have picked up along the line of this discussion that you're not being entirely serious with your comment there .. you have actually explained there exactly what OP's intent was .. it's obvious that is what he did/was doing.

I was asking for clarification. Rather than being confrontational, if you have a problem with a post, please refer it to a moderator.

Thank you.

 

[Trooper]

I don't personally think he is paranoid with regard to people conspiring against him .. I don't believe he thinks they are conspiring against him at all .. it's basically just that he keeps on using things like 'police contamination' in order to make his own version of events stick .. he is using things like that as part of his one big fat lie, he doesn't actually believe that is what they are doing (i.e. conspiring against him). Again, this is all part of the thing where truth is becoming mixed up with fiction, and because we don't really know which bits are true and which bits aren't, we end up trying to find reasons for things which are actually a lie in the first place and don't even really exist, and therefore don't even need analyzing. OP is not paranoid in any way, shape or form, imo .. he isn't paranoid about the threat of intruders or being attacked, because all of his supporting stories on that are made up and he isn't paranoid about people conspiring against him either, because his accusations against those people are only in order to cover up his lies.

I concur... I don't think his presentation of this , or these 'fears' he claims he has is genuine..

I don't think he has fear.... I think he means to instill fear...the speeding with passengers... the inappropriate firing of the gun.. I don't believe for one moment that gun going off in the restaurant was an accident.. nor in the Vaal river drive.. it was to instill fear..I don't think the target he means to instill it in is specific, either.. it is mood dependant. When necessary for Oscar it can be specific.

those incidences were just the tip of the iceberg, in my opinion.

 

[soozieqtips]

According to phone logs, the 2nd set of bangs occurred shortly before 3:15:51a.m., as that is the time Dr. Stipp finally got through to estate security (after hearing 2nd set of bangs).

Before calling Stander and Netcare, OP put on his legs & pried the panels out of the toilet door.

OP called Stander at 3:19:03. That call lasted 24 seconds.

OP called Netcare at 3:20:05. That call lasted 66 seconds.

OP testified that he then went downstairs to unlock the front door, returned upstairs to carry Reeva downstairs.

3:21:33 outgoing call to Baba (estate security) lasted 9 seconds, during which OP did not speak. Baba thought he heard OP crying. That call was likely made by mistake.

3:22:05 Baba pulled up in front of OP's house, called OP. OP said "everything is fine" and hung up.

Shortly after, Baba said that Stander and his daughter pulled up in front of OP's house.

Stander, Stander's daughter Clarice, Baba, and another security guard raced to OP's front door. They saw OP on the landing of the stairs holding Reeva, and then saw OP carry Reeva down the stairs.

HTH

BBM - looking especially forward to Nel asking OP why on EARTH he told Baba everything was fine when he'd just murdered someone. He really didn't want Baba turning up when the Standers were already on their way.

I think Nel is going to point out that after the murder, all OP's actions were about himself and protecting himself from bad publicity. He's already put it out there that the relationship between OP and Reeva was all about OP and his own needs, and that's how it continued after he'd murdered her.