Trial Discussion weekend Thread #24

[nastasya]

I agree with that, but I'm thinking in terms of this specific incident.

If we recap, until OP gets that door open he doesn't know what's happened. He doesn't know if Reeva's dead, alive or fell to the floor unconscious. He doesn't know where the bullets have gone inside that toilet or how many may have hit. He has no information to tell the emergency services at that stage. This is why my primary concern would be to get the door open, see where the bullets have gone and and try to stem any immediate bleeding.

This only applies if OP didn't hear Reeva screaming, which is his claim.

If he had heard Reeva screaming, then he'd notice that the screaming had stopped, and would presume he had killed, or at the very least seriously wounded Reeva. In that scenario it wouldn't matter when he made the call.

Completely false to say "Until OP opens the door he doesn't know what's happened." OP claimed he knew with 100% certainty somebody was in the toilet, he shot four times, and then there was no response from the person in the toilet.

And you're saying it's more important that spend 5 minutes dicking around trying to open the toilet door just so he knew if the person he shot would need an ambulance or not?

And there was no urgency to call for help if she was already "seriously wounded" and on the verge of death?

Seriously? Do you really believe this?

The truth is he knew she couldn't be helped. He already knew he blew the brains out the back of her head. That's why he called Stander first and by the time Stipp arrived, neither Stander, Clarice, or OP had called anybody for help.

In fact, the one person who could have helped, Baba, was told everything's ok.

Do you believe the gun shot itself too without OP pulling the trigger?

 

[clearskies1]

BBM - looking especially forward to Nel asking OP why on EARTH he told Baba everything was fine when he'd just murdered someone. He really didn't want Baba turning up when the Standers were already on their way.

I think Nel is going to point out that after the murder, all OP's actions were about himself and protecting himself from bad publicity. He's already put it out there that the relationship between OP and Reeva was all about OP and his own needs, and that's how it continued after he'd murdered her.

Got to think OP will deny saying that to Baba. He may say he was babbling because he was in shock.

MOO

 

[molly333]

That 5 witnesses that were further than 50 feet away did hear this event kinda proves that the YouTube video was false.

By "clear" I think they meant you could clearly hear the words being shouted and tell if man or woman.

What did the closest witnesses hear?

 

[soozieqtips]

Got to think OP will deny saying that to Baba. He may say he was babbling because he was in shock.

MOO

That's okay. Baba will just be put on the growing list of liars.

 

[steveml]

BBM - he didn't try and stem anything. He just sat there with her for at least 5 minutes and did nothing. He never claimed to have stemmed any bleeding, but he did claim that he sat there and cried. So at that point, he did absolutely nothing for a period of 5 minutes. Then, for some strange reason, he decides to try and resuscitate her later when he's bringing her down the stairs. He doesn't try this as soon as possible after dragging her into the bathroom. No. He waits till he's on his way downstairs. Make any sense? Forget that he's supposedly on his way out to the hospital with her, because he still stops to try and resuscitate her. So why not do it in the bathroom as soon as he was able to 'assist' her?

Nope, it doesn't make any sense. If you're being accused of intentionality killing someone it's not a great idea to say you sat there for 5 minutes, not doing anything.

That's a very bad plan, and more likely to land you in jail than saying at least you tried to save her. Is he being honest or dishonest here?

 

[james83]

Got to think OP will deny saying that to Baba. He may say he was babbling because he was in shock.

MOO

Or he didn't have time to think, LOL.

 

[weeeva]

it was mentioned in Dr. Stipp's testimony.
btw, the prosecution is just getting warmed up ...expect to see OP on the stand for many more days. there is a vast amount of evidence yet to be explored. Given that Nel has not completed the bedroom, there is still the passage way artifacts, the destruction in the main bathroom, the toilette door, the cricket bat, the jeans outside the bathroom window, the bedroom door, the inexplicable damage to OP's prosthetic legs, the trip to the Mamelodi medical centre, the first few phone calls, the internet/whatsapp connections and much more to be sorted out while OP is on the stand.

I am not much good at keeping track of all the evidence, but I was under the impression that the prosecution having already made it's case, they could not now bring in new evidence. The jeans lying outside has never been mentioned, by either side, so it can't be brought into play now, which means it had nothing to do with the incident, or if it did, that one or both lawyers are totally incompetent. The same applies to the bedroom door. As far as I can remember the phones and internet records have already been explored and nothing else can come to light now. As for the trip to the Mamelodi medical centre I admit I have no clue what you are talking about.

 

[DebinGA]

BBM - looking especially forward to Nel asking OP why on EARTH he told Baba everything was fine when he'd just murdered someone. He really didn't want Baba turning up when the Standers were already on their way.

I think Nel is going to point out that after the murder, all OP's actions were about himself and protecting himself from bad publicity. He's already put it out there that the relationship between OP and Reeva was all about OP and his own needs, and that's how it continued after he'd murdered her.

BBM
Reeva's multi-episode Tropika Island show began airing on Feb. 16. I imagine there were some promotional events around it that Reeva attended. Wonder if OP accompanied her? If not, I hope Nel asks OP why not.

 

[DebinGA]

That's okay. Baba will just be put on the growing list of liars.

For someone who was in shock and incapable of thought at the time, he remembers certain things very clearly.

 

[Trooper]

I am not much good at keeping track of all the evidence, but I was under the impression that the prosecution having already made it's case, they could not now bring in new evidence. The jeans lying outside has never been mentioned, by either side, so it can't be brought into play now, which means it had nothing to do with the incident, or if it did, that one or both lawyers are totally incompetent. The same applies to the bedroom door. As far as I can remember the phones and internet records have already been explored and nothing else can come to light now. As for the trip to the Mamelodi medical centre I admit I have no clue what you are talking about.

If Roux allows Oscar to 'open the door' to new evidence , the prosecution can bring it in in x-examination.. the clip of the watermelon being shot at was one such example.

the phone and internet records have been tabled as evidence. they have yet to be gone thru in their entirety.. Nel can bring up any piece of that 'door ' if a defence witness opens it.

 

[steveml]

Completely false to say "Until OP opens the door he doesn't know what's happened." OP claimed he knew with 100% certainty somebody was in the toilet, he shot four times, and then there was no response from the person in the toilet.

And you're saying it's more important that spend 5 minutes dicking around trying to open the toilet door just so he knew if the person he shot would need an ambulance or not?

And there was no urgency to call for help if she was already "seriously wounded" and on the verge of death?

Seriously? Do you really believe this?

The truth is he knew she couldn't be helped. He already knew he blew the brains out the back of her head. That's why he called Stander first and by the time Stipp arrived, neither Stander, Clarice, or OP had called anybody for help.

In fact, the one person who could have helped, Baba, was told everything's ok.

Do you believe the gun shot itself too without OP pulling the trigger?

Nope it's not a false claim at all, he said he thought there was somebody in the toilet and there wasn't. The noise he heard in the toilet would have stopped, yes, but he still has no idea who's in there. For that reason he has to discover Reeva isn't in the bed before any action is taken.

BBM

No. I'm certain I've never claimed that.

 

[BritsKate]

An accident, I agree but what psychological gymnastics must be going on inside OP's brain for him to state in court, unequivocally, that his finger was not on the trigger and that he did not fire the gun. It is this part of his psychological makeup that makes me scratch my little head.

This type of denial, in the face of the evidence, in front of the judge, and needless denial at that, makes me wonder about his mental capacity not just his lack of intelligence.

I don't think he'd thought through just how damning it would be to state unequivocally he hadn't fired. I believe he was told to deny everything and he prefers to deny everything. Oscar seems to be completely unable to accept almost any wrongdoing on his part and while I don't think his cookie has the most chips, he's lived his adult life (and possibly far longer) never really being called to account for his actions. He's been able to manipulate, lie, bully or buy his way out of everything. So...why should now be any different?


MOO

 

[TrueDetective]

BBM - he didn't try and stem anything. He just sat there with her for at least 5 minutes and did nothing. He never claimed to have stemmed any bleeding, but he did claim that he sat there and cried. So at that point, he did absolutely nothing for a period of 5 minutes. Then, for some strange reason, he decides to try and resuscitate her later when he's bringing her down the stairs. He doesn't try this as soon as possible after dragging her into the bathroom. No. He waits till he's on his way downstairs. Make any sense? Forget that he's supposedly on his way out to the hospital with her, because he still stops to try and resuscitate her. So why not do it in the bathroom as soon as he was able to 'assist' her?

Exactly. And even now he still has the nerve to criticise Stipp during his testimony. I found that incredibly unfair and totally inappropriate. OP shot her 4 times!!!

 

[Linda7NJ]

I think it's helpful to remove Oscar from the scenario and insert any other non famous couple on the planet.
It becomes a no brainer. Imo


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[molly333]

According to phone logs, the 2nd set of bangs occurred shortly before 3:15:51a.m., as that is the time Dr. Stipp finally got through to estate security (after hearing 2nd set of bangs).

Before calling Stander and Netcare, OP put on his legs & pried the panels out of the toilet door.

OP called Stander at 3:19:03. That call lasted 24 seconds.

OP called Netcare at 3:20:05. That call lasted 66 seconds.

OP testified that he then went downstairs to unlock the front door, returned upstairs to carry Reeva downstairs.

3:21:33 outgoing call to Baba (estate security) lasted 9 seconds, during which OP did not speak. Baba thought he heard OP crying. That call was likely made by mistake.

3:22:05 Baba pulled up in front of OP's house, called OP. OP said "everything is fine" and hung up.

Shortly after, Baba said that Stander and his daughter pulled up in front of OP's house.

Stander, Stander's daughter Clarice, Baba, and another security guard raced to OP's front door. They saw OP on the landing of the stairs holding Reeva, and then saw OP carry Reeva down the stairs.

HTH

Oh man, this is very strange.--no calls out for 19 minutes after 3:00am bangs

1)First call to Stander
2)Second call to ambulance which results in no ambulance coming
[3)First call made 19 minutes after 3:00am bangs]
4)Third call is silent call to security; Next call in from security,brushing off call from security w "everything fine"
5) Who finally called the EMT's?

 

[TorisMom003]

I am not much good at keeping track of all the evidence, but I was under the impression that the prosecution having already made it's case, they could not now bring in new evidence. The jeans lying outside has never been mentioned, by either side, so it can't be brought into play now, which means it had nothing to do with the incident, or if it did, that one or both lawyers are totally incompetent. The same applies to the bedroom door. As far as I can remember the phones and internet records have already been explored and nothing else can come to light now. As for the trip to the Mamelodi medical centre I admit I have no clue what you are talking about.

The photo of the jeans on the outside of the house was entered in as evidence. That means that Nel can (and more than likely will) ask OP about those jeans. Same goes for the bedroom door. Nel did not admit those photos into evidence for nothing. He had a reason for doing so, we just haven't heard about that reason yet.

 

[TorisMom003]

Oh man, this is very strange.--no calls out for 19 minutes after 3:00am bangs

1)First call to Stander
2)Second call to ambulance which results in no ambulance coming
[3)First call made 19 minutes after 3:00am bangs]
4)Third call is silent call to security; Next call in from security,brushing off call from security w "everything fine"
5) Who finally called the EMT's?

I believe it was Dr Stipp that told Stander to call for the ambulance.

 

[Viper]

By "clear" I think they meant you could clearly hear the words being shouted and tell if man or woman.

What did the closest witnesses hear?

Oh! My apologies then. But even still several witnesses did decern that it was in fact both a man and a women that they heard, and that it was arguing, yelling, and then blood curling screams at the end.

The YouTube videos of various things are really meaningless right now, not only because they are typically flawed but also because the trial is already midway finished and we have heard the testimony of so many witnesses, investigators, and experts.

 

[soozieqtips]

Nope, it doesn't make any sense. If you're being accused of intentionality killing someone it's not a great idea to say you sat there for 5 minutes, not doing anything.

That's a very bad plan, and more likely to land you in jail than saying at least you tried to save her. Is he being honest or dishonest here?

BBM - With inveterate liars, it's hard to know when they're being honest or dishonest - but I'd wager a bet that anything OP has said on the stand is to benefit himself, so I'll go for 'dishonest'. He had to find some way of using up a little time, so saying he sat with her is as good a reason as any. And no, he wouldn't have thought that sitting with her would be more likely to land him in jail, as he could just say he was so overwrought with emotion he couldn't move from her side while he cried and cried and cried. Trying to resuscitate her later won't gain him any points because it was obvious she couldn't possibly be saved. Do you still think he's completely innocent?

 

[katydid23]

BBM


The fact that OP had his arm on the wall for balance and leaned back against the wall makes perfect sense, whatever speed OP's traveling at.
Below the knee amputation often necessitates the need to hold or lean against something stable, especially once you stop moving.

Once he stops moving he is more than likely to sway. The swaying is further exaggerated by unclear vision or darkness. This is precisely why it is beyond reasonable doubt that OP could have targeted his shots to the head, or indeed anywhere, from where the PT were claiming. He either had to be leaning back for stability, or swaying.

The following link makes quite interesting reading :- link

Then why the heck didn't he take the time to put his legs on, while he was still behind the locked bedroom doors? Why would you go towards danger, swaying and unsteady, leaning up against a wall, so vulnerably, when it would only take seconds to throw on those blade runners?

eta: i shouldnt have said b;lade runners. I meant his legs that were airing out feet away.