Trial Discussion weekend Thread #24

[molly333]

One of the witnesses, Mr. Johnson, was surprised when he heard the next day that what he had heard the night before was, as he put it, "a domestic violence situation."

The reason he was surprised is because he heard the man calling for help, too. He had thought it was a home invasion.

He heard the man and woman calling for help, one right after the other. He thought that maybe they were tied up by home invaders.

Now, if Reeva is sincerely shouting 'help' to the neighborhood [he heard the woman first] and Oscar mimics her to confuse the neighbors, how diabolical is that?

 

[molly333]

They both had other stuff to do. And if I'm being really honest - I think Reeva was very casual for Oscar and she was seeing where it was headed. I don't think no plans are indicative of an impending break up - just a more casual relationship. I think Valentine's Day meant more to Reeva than Oscar but she also didn't want to push him into more.

For me, the speech the next day on abuse has always been too coincidental for my liking. Many feel he wasn't abusive but if that's true, he certainly shares many characteristics and behaviours indicative of an abusive personality. But abuse doesn't always manifest the same - especially emotional abuse. I think she'd been thinking about her previous abusive relationship, recognised patterns, and confronted him on it.

It's totally possible I'm superimposing my history though. I'd confronted my ex just once on his abuse - five years in - and his rage terrified me so greatly I didn't so much as whisper the word abuse for another five years.


Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

She had already confronted him at least 3 times in the emails. Maybe we should go back and look at the emails more closely. She is describing classic verbal and controlling abuse in those emails.

This was a 4 month relationship, but they were becoming an item now in the media. Reeva had to decide, did she really want to allow this to go on, especially since she knew it wasn't working out?

So when did she decide? Sometime before she ended up dead, IMO.

Or, it was an accident.

 

[Chelly]

One of the witnesses, Mr. Johnson, was surprised when he heard the next day that what he had heard the night before was, as he put it, "a domestic violence situation."

The reason he was surprised is because he heard the man calling for help, too. He had thought it was a home invasion.

He heard the man and woman calling for help, one right after the other. He thought it maybe they were tied up by home invaders.

Now, if Reeva is sincerely shouting 'help' to the neighborhood [he heard the woman first] and Oscar mimics her to confuse the neighbors, how diabolical is that?

Still wondering what evidence supports your theory that Reeva broke up with OP that night, causing the fight and subsequent murder. Did she tell someone in advance that she was going to bring a gift, break up with OP and stay over afterward?

Fact: She did call a family member earlier in the evening saying she was too tired to drive home, thus her decision to sleep over. There was no distress in her words and tone of voice in that call

 

[clearskies1]

Have I missed something or has there not yet been any questions or testimony about the Netcare call that OP says he made. IIRC, in his bail affi he says he called them, they told them to bring her in rather than wait for them. He then went downstairs and opened the door, then went back up to get her.

He says in court testimony that he sat with her body crying for he didn't know how long.

Has Netcare ever confirmed that they advised him to bring her in rather than wait for an ambulance?

Also: there were several reports of his car running in the driveway. Has that ever been confirmed or thrown out?

TIA, smart people!

BBM: Only evidence so far is that the call lasted 66 seconds, and OP testified that he doesn't remember what he said during call but remembers that netcare told him to bring Reeva in. No evidence from netcare about the call yet.

MOO

 

[molly333]

Did I misunderstand you, or did you think she was about to break up with OP that night?

You didn't misunderstand me.

I think that's what happened, yes.

She underestimated the danger she was in, breaking up with him, alone in his home, at night, after drinks.

Or, it was an accident.

 

[Chelly]

BIB. There was an image of a man in the PT photo book, it was flashed on the monitor. He is involved somehow. I personally don't see him linked to Reeva. If he is then linked to OP and Reeva learned whatever secret there was between the two of them then I can see OP going crazy / mad and that secret being out leading to murder. Guess we will have to wait to find out who the man is though.

good point

 

[BritsKate]

She had already confronted him at least 3 times in the emails. Maybe we should go back and look at the emails more closely. She is describing classic verbal and controlling abuse in those emails.



This was a 4 month relationship, but they were becoming an item now in the media. Reeva had to decide, did she really want to allow this to go on, especially since she knew it wasn't working out?



So when did she decide? Sometime before she ended up dead, IMO.



Or, it was an accident.

I think we're gonna just have to agree to disagree. While she'd obviously confronted him via text we don't know, really, to what extent she'd ever confronted him when they were alone. Even though she was describing 'classic' signs of DV, it doesn't mean she herself saw it as an abusive relationship. I don't think she made that link until that night. And I don't think she intended to end the relationship when she went there that night though respect you do.


Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

 

[BabaJ]

.

.....................
I didn't say he wanted to be treated with kindness. I say that he doesn't function well when someone is unkind because he's not used to it.

Was Reeva unkind?

 

[molly333]

BIB. There was an image of a man in the PT photo book, it was flashed on the monitor. He is involved somehow. I personally don't see him linked to Reeva. If he is then linked to OP and Reeva learned whatever secret there was between the two of them then I can see OP going crazy / mad and that secret being out leading to murder. Guess we will have to wait to find out who the man is though.

You think she found out he was having an affair with a man? That would do it.

Nel needs a motive. Random fights don't escalate to death.

I'm sure he has a motive in mind.

So far, he's only given us evidence of domestic violence.

 

[Viper]

That shows they may not have decided to go to sleep yet. However, they could have been in bed with iphones and ipad.

BIB. Whoa there partner, slow down! Your original question was: "How do we know they didn't go to bed that night?" That means going to sleep for the evening. I answered that. Now my answer is being twisted as having not correctly answered some different question? I don't think so!

 

[Chelly]

You didn't misunderstand me.

I think that's what happened, yes.

She underestimated the danger she was in, breaking up with him, alone in his home, at night, after drinks.

Or, it was an accident.

That's a huge leap. How can you on one hand theorize he killed her for breaking up with him and in the same breath say it could have been an accident? You either believe one or the other. Fact is neither theory makes any sense.

 

[DebinGA]

Reeva sent a "Good luck with your meeting" msg to OP that morning. On direct OP said the meeting was with his "financial advisor", which might be Oscar-speak for "sports agent" or "lawyer". Apparently the meeting didn't go well, given RS's msg mid-afternoon consoling him about "the hurdle" he faced. I bet OP heard something disturbing at that meeting, perhaps re his sponsors or the lawsuit filed against him by the former girlfriend whose leg he injured while throwing her out of his house, or re Mr. VdB who'd taken out a protective order against him, or Mark Bachelor whose legs OP had publicly threatened to break .... or who knows what else. Bottom line, it's very likely he arrived home already very angry/aggrieved and things escalated from there.

 

[Chelly]

BIB. Whoa there partner, slow down! Your original question was: "How do we know they didn't go to bed that night?" That means going to sleep for the evening. I answered that. Now my answer is being twisted as having not correctly answered some different question? I don't think so!

We may have a semantics misunderstanding.

Where I come from: "going to bed" and "going to sleep for the evening" are different.

 

[soozieqtips]

She had already confronted him at least 3 times in the emails. Maybe we should go back and look at the emails more closely. She is describing classic verbal and controlling abuse in those emails.

This was a 4 month relationship, but they were becoming an item now in the media. Reeva had to decide, did she really want to allow this to go on, especially since she knew it wasn't working out?

So when did she decide? Sometime before she ended up dead, IMO.

Or, it was an accident.

BBM - They met in November 2012, and OP said it didn't get 'serious' till January. So they'd met less than 4 months before he murdered her, and it wasn't serious till about 4 or 5 weeks before he murdered her. Maybe she told OP she was going to mention (in her speech the next day) some of the things he'd subjected her to as part of her talk. I doubt very much that she told him she'd name him, because that wasn't the sort of person she was - but by perhaps letting him know that she felt abused and was going to talk about it publicly was enough to start a row. He's said more than once on the stand that Reeva wasn't 'scared' of him, so he's quite comfortable with denying her feelings, even after her death.

 

[molly333]

I think we're gonna just have to agree to disagree. While she'd obviously confronted him via text we don't know, really, to what extent she'd ever confronted him when they were alone. Even though she was describing 'classic' signs of DV, it doesn't mean she herself saw it as an abusive relationship. I don't think she made that link until that night. And I don't think she intended to end the relationship when she went there that night though respect you do.


Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

I think we do agree, although we might disagree on the mechanics of it.

I think we agree she told him that night--that's it, your time to treat me badly is over.

Am I right?

 

[Giles]

Reeva sent a "Good luck with your meeting" msg to OP that morning. On direct OP said the meeting was with his "financial advisor", which might be Oscar-speak for "sports agent" or "lawyer". Apparently the meeting didn't go well, given RS's msg mid-afternoon consoling him about "the hurdle" he faced. I bet OP heard something disturbing at that meeting, perhaps re his sponsors or the lawsuit filed against him by the former girlfriend whose leg he injured while throwing her out of his house, or re Mr. VdB who'd taken out a protective order against him, or Mark Bachelor whose legs OP had publicly threatened to break .... or who knows what else. Bottom line, it's very likely he arrived home already very angry/aggrieved and things escalated from there.

Yes, I believe this could be a potential motive. The other thing that was highlighted by the Prosecution was that Reeva had met with an old boyfriend the previous day and this could have caused some jealous reactions from Oscar...

 

[LinasK]

I agree with everything in your post.

I have no idea what caused OP to kill Reeva. I don't believe that it was that she was breaking up with him that caused this. That carefully chosen gift that she had put together had photos of she and him; that is not the gift she would give to the man she was about to leave behind IMO. That he had nothing for her screams trouble to me, especially given his history of going all out on Valentines Day.

Reeva's bag was packed, except her jeans and sandals (house shoes that she probably left there anyway). So she was leaving IMO. Obviously they argued that night and they never settled it to the point that they just dropped it and went to sleep.

Mr. Nel keeps pointing to OPs obsession with his own needs and wants and him treating Reeva poorly. So I guess I am leaning towards an argument related to that which OP just freaked out about. My other thought is of course his brand, his image, those things are valuable and are equal to money. Even if it was not in Reeva's character to share things about another person with others because she would not want that person to be hurt, OP may not have had trust in her to let her leave after learning of some dark secret of his.

I think it was his jealousy. She had met with her ex-boyfriend for coffee just a day or two beforehand.

 

[zwiebel]

I wonder if it could possibly be that there was a row over the meal. I noticed a few times in his testimony OP mentioned being starving/hungry/can't eat that/hadn't eaten properly for weeks. He also brings the subject up a few times in msgs to Reeva, and blames hunger for at least one incident?

He has given me the impression when he has to eat, he has to eat, gets snappy and is also very, very particular about his diet. Low blood sugar or something, perhaps. Also, that he maybe struggles to keep his weight/hunger pangs down? There was just something about the way he made such a point about them carrying the used dishes into the kitchen...made me a bit suspicious.

I also thought I saw a plate on the floor in the bedroom photo, by the ipad, but I can't find the photo back in the thread now.

 

[Chelly]

You think she found out he was having an affair with a man? That would do it.

Nel needs a motive. Random fights don't escalate to death.

I'm sure he has a motive in mind.

So far, he's only given us evidence of domestic violence.

Fact is: Unfortunately, in the real world, random fights can and do escalate to death. Add a little alcohol to the rage plus a nearby loaded semi-auto. Happens, really.

 

[Gryffindor]

I think it was his jealousy. She had met with her ex-boyfriend for coffee just a day or two beforehand.

Oscar was fine with it. Evidenced in messages.