TRIAL - Ross Harris #1

[GA_Peach]

BBM -- Did RH say he positively saw Cooper asleep? Saying, he "must have fallen asleep" does not mean RH saw him asleep. I looked around for my cat a few minutes ago. Don't see him. Don't hear him. He must be somewhere asleep.

So basically Ross was doing nothing more than speculating? Honestly, the implication that Ross can conclude that Cooper fell asleep insults me. Either Ross knew Cooper was asleep because he was able to confirm it (by sight) or he knew nothing about the state of Cooper's (non)activity. If one assumes that he "forgot" about Cooper, Ross had no clue what Cooper did or did not do because JRH was perfectly unaware of Cooper's existence in the car.

 

[katydid23]

Maybe the detail of where Cooper's head was inside the car seat will matter to the jury, maybe it won't, no way of knowing yet.

Pointing out incorrect information here matters, imo, for any fact based discussion about Cooper and the car seat. Or any fact-based discussion of evidence, for that matter. The significance of factual evidence is subjective, but thankfully, facts are facts are facts. And factually, there is no possibility that Cooper's head stuck out 3" over the top of the seat, or over the top of the seat at all, which imo, isn't a trivial detail to either the defense or State.

But his arms could have easily stuck out over the top of the car seat if he moved them around. There would be movement coming from his car seat, in my opinion. I don't believe he would have fallen asleep before Ross left the parking lot and reached the exit.

 

[blue22]

The problem I keep having with these measurements is this: Do we know exactly where the coroner decided his buttocks were in the measurement, and is that an accurate place to measure to decide whether Cooper's head would be sticking up or not? I am sitting down and trying to figure out where exactly on my buttocks you would need to measure to determine how high the top of my head is in relation to the chair back. Every time I think I found the right place, when I stand up it seems to be in a slightly different place on my butt. Not to mention, measuring that against the chair, how would you know how much my seat sunk into the cushion?

And if the defense is going to attack the competence of the ME, can they really use the measurements as gold? Either his skills and competency are in question or they aren't. They can't pick and choose what parts of his skill and competency are trustworthy.

IMO.

 

[arkansasmimi]

Do we know if the phone RH was a work phone? Also they found an iPhone in his vehicle curious if it was activated?

 

[arkansasmimi]

For the people who are saying Cooper wouldn't be visible above the back of the car seat....... How then did RH see him when he was changing lanes after he finished work? He said he saw him, drove up the road a bit, pulled in and started screaming as he removed Cooper from the car....

Jmho and again haven't followed from beginning but have been listening to hearings. Possible that was first time turned around towards back of vehicle? Changing lanes? Backing up a lot of people use mirrors. Hope to learn more in coming days from testimony. Also the fact that LE manipulated the placement of car seat back in car concerns me. I a huge LEO advocate and possibility of a rogue Detective should concern everyone. Seems most in case have gotten promotions since this happened.

 

[Hope4More]

BBM -- Did RH say he positively saw Cooper asleep? Saying, he "must have fallen asleep" does not mean RH saw him asleep. I looked around for my cat a few minutes ago. Don't see him. Don't hear him. He must be somewhere asleep.

No, he did not say he saw Cooper asleep. He also did not say he knew Cooper was asleep.

I believe the context of his saying "he must have fallen asleep" was that RH was trying to explain, and to understand himself, how it was possible he forgot Cooper was in the car. I think he may have said it very early on, as in, the same day or next.

That utterance makes total sense to me, because I think it's the only logical explanation for how it was RH didn't know Cooper was in the car.

One isn't likely to forget one's son is there if one's son is talking or chirping or singing or just kicking at the back seat, for that matter.

I'm well aware that many here don't believe Cooper did fall asleep in the car that morning. From my experience with kids, including my DS and his friends and friend's kids, and (step) grandchildren, etc., I know it's possible for kids that age to fall asleep that quickly in a car, yes, even in the morning.

(Daycare testified Cooper wasn't always awake when RH brought him in, so morning didn't necessarily mean wide awake, and, it isn't necessary to believe Cooper fell asleep in 1 minute, or 2, or in the time to the intersection to believe RH didn't know, only that after RH drove on by the intersection (his forgetting in those few moments a separate event) Cooper was drowsy enough to be silent, and asleep within FIVE MINUTES of leaving CFA, the time it took to reach work.

Subjective, but imo, perfectly plausible. ETA, perhaps all the more so because iirc, folks did walk close enough to RH's car in the AM to be able to hear a wide awake toddler whose father was no where in sight.

 

[alwaysonmymind]

The problem I keep having with these measurements is this: Do we know exactly where the coroner decided his buttocks were in the measurement, and is that an accurate place to measure to decide whether Cooper's head would be sticking up or not? I am sitting down and trying to figure out where exactly on my buttocks you would need to measure to determine how high the top of my head is in relation to the chair back. Every time I think I found the right place, when I stand up it seems to be in a slightly different place on my butt. Not to mention, measuring that against the chair, how would you know how much my seat sunk into the cushion?

The crown to rump measurement would be from the top of his head to where his legs start.




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[MsMarple]

No, he did not say he saw Cooper asleep. He also did not say he knew Cooper was asleep.

I believe the context of his saying "he must have fallen asleep" was that RH was trying to explain, and to understand himself, how it was possible he forgot Cooper was in the car. I think he may have said it very early on, as in, the same day or next.

That utterance makes total sense to me, because I think it's the only logical explanation for how it was RH didn't know Cooper was in the car.

One isn't likely to forget one's son is there if one's son is talking or chirping or singing or just kicking at the back seat, for that matter.

I'm well aware that many here don't believe Cooper did fall asleep in the car that morning. From my experience with kids, including my DS and his friends and friend's kids, and (step) grandchildren, etc., I know it's possible for kids that age to fall asleep that quickly in a car, yes, even in the morning.

(Daycare testified Cooper wasn't always awake when RH brought him in, so morning didn't necessarily mean wide awake, and, it isn't necessary to believe Cooper fell asleep in 1 minute, or 2, or in the time to the intersection to believe RH didn't know, only that after RH drove on by the intersection (his forgetting in those few moments a separate event) Cooper was drowsy enough to be silent, and asleep within FIVE MINUTES of leaving CFA, the time it took to reach work.

Subjective, but imo, perfectly plausible. ETA, perhaps all the more so because iirc, folks did walk close enough to RH's car in the AM to be able to hear a wide awake toddler whose father was no where in sight.

RBBM

Wait, what? How did I miss that? There were people walking by the SUV right after Ross parked that morning? I don't remember that and I've been here from the beginning, although I apologize in advance if this is new info that I missed.

 

[Gigglingtoes]

Cooper was not an infant and he was not in a correct seat. That is a fact.


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Totally. Those are made for infants to make it easy to carry the baby around when it passes out. Its no longer convenient or easy to carry nor do they look normal at 1.5 years old in those....Def not normal and if my husband decided to put my daughters infant seat in his car, I would think he would notice she didnt fit.

 

[MsMarple]

It's kind of a moot point anyway - according to the manufacturer Cooper shouldn't have been in that car seat:

Make Sure Child Fits This Restraint
ONLY USE this Child Restraint with children who weigh between
4 and 30 pounds (2 and 13.5 kg) and whose height is 30 inches
(76 cm) or less.

DO NOT use this child restraint if top of child’s head is less than 1
inch from top of restraint.

ONLY USE the Newborn Insert in the lowest harness position,
and only if the child weighs between 4 and 11 pounds (2 and 5 kg).

http://demandware.edgesuite.net/aam...w345472c0/manuals/KeyFit30_2016_IS0018.7E.pdf

Sorry Gigglingtoes - stupid "Reply with Quote" function's on the fritz again.

 

[GA_Peach]

RBBM

Wait, what? How did I miss that? There were people walking by the SUV right after Ross parked that morning? I don't remember that and I've been here from the beginning, although I apologize in advance if this is new info that I missed.

I do not believe that this has been testified to. During his opening statement, Maddox Kilgore stated that there was an area behind Ross's car (on June 18) where people could walk if they so desired. However, Kilgore commented on that with respect to Ross's parking spot location. Kilgore made the point that if Ross parked with his car backed up to the treeline that no passerby would have been able to see in his car, but in the spot where Ross actually parked, people would be able to see into the car. In other words, Ross was not attempting to hide Cooper.

 

[GA_Peach]

BBM -- Did RH say he positively saw Cooper asleep? Saying, he "must have fallen asleep" does not mean RH saw him asleep. I looked around for my cat a few minutes ago. Don't see him. Don't hear him. He must be somewhere asleep.

For the sake of clarity, I didn't say that RH said that. I said if the DT was going to use that strategy, which had been mentioned by several other posters, that I would not buy it. Any speculation made by Ross about what Cooper was potentially doing on the car ride to the Tree House is hogwash.... unless, of course, Ross knew that Cooper was in the car.

If the DT overplays its hand with respect to what Ross may or may not have known about Cooper's final car ride, I could find myself in the premeditation category. As the DT, I wouldn't even dream of going there.

 

[Hope4More]

RBBM

Wait, what? How did I miss that? There were people walking by the SUV right after Ross parked that morning? I don't remember that and I've been here from the beginning, although I apologize in advance if this is new info that I missed.

People "walking by his SUV right after he parked" is not what I said. I said "people walked close enough by his car in the AM," and I added "IiRC" because I do that when I'm not sure if I am remembering correctly, hence the "IF."

But yes, IIRC, that was the point LE was making when they seemingly misinterpreted what was on surveillance tape, saying RH appeared concerned because folk or folks were walking towards (or near? ) his car.

And, aside from what has been stated or testified to or mis-stated, and just as an IMO, morning as in a period of time during which if Cooper woke up, if asleep, and found himself alone in the car, what defies belief IMO is that he would stayed quiet and still enough to not have been noticed or heard by anyone walking anywhere near that car.

 

[magnolia]

So basically Ross was doing nothing more than speculating? Honestly, the implication that Ross can conclude that Cooper fell asleep insults me. Either Ross knew Cooper was asleep because he was able to confirm it (by sight) or he knew nothing about the state of Cooper's (non)activity. If one assumes that he "forgot" about Cooper, Ross had no clue what Cooper did or did not do because JRH was perfectly unaware of Cooper's existence in the car.

RH was expressing an opinion about something that he thought was logically very likely. Especially, if Cooper was like most children that often fall asleep in their car seat. IMO

 

[Hope4More]

For the sake of clarity, I didn't say that RH said that. I said if the DT was going to use that strategy, which had been mentioned by several other posters, that I would not buy it. Any speculation made by Ross about what Cooper was potentially doing on the car ride to the Tree House is hogwash.... unless, of course, Ross knew that Cooper was in the car.

If the DT overplays its hand with respect to what Ross may or may not have known about Cooper's final car ride, I could find myself in the premeditation category. As the DT, I wouldn't even dream of going there.

It's not a strategy if it's the truth, and the truth may well be just what it appears on its face to be--Ross Harris, immediately after his son died because he was left in a hot car, was trying to figure out how in the world he could have not known Cooper was in the car, and reached for the explanation Cooper must have been asleep, because it is IMO an entirely logical conclusion to reach, especially if his forgetting was because of a mentally checked off certainty Cooper had been dropped off at daycare.


ETA. Magnolia-- I read yr reply after laboring for minutes on mine. I envy your ability to express your thoughts so succinctly.

 

[GA_Peach]

It's not a strategy if it's the truth, and the truth may well be just what it appears on its face to be--Ross Harris, immediately after his son died because he was left in a hot car, was trying to figure out how in the world he could have not known Cooper was in the car, and reached for the explanation Cooper must have been asleep, because it is IMO an entirely logical conclusion to reach, especially if his forgetting was because of a mentally checked off certainty Cooper had been dropped off at daycare.


ETA. Magnolia-- I read yr reply after laboring for minutes on mine. I envy your ability to express your thoughts so succinctly.

If the DT wants to say that is what RH said shortly after Cooper's death, that is one thing.

On the other hand, if the DT wants to push the narrative that Cooper "must have fallen asleep" in an effort to explain how Cooper was forgotten, you can put me in the premeditated category because the ONLY way that can be known for certain is if Ross knew Cooper was in the car.

RH was expressing an opinion about something that he thought was logically very likely. Especially, if Cooper was like most children that often fall asleep in their car seat. IMO

Ross's opinion = speculation.

 

[blue22]

People "walking by his SUV right after he parked" is not what I said. I said "people walked close enough by his car in the AM," and I added "IiRC" because I do that when I'm not sure if I am remembering correctly, hence the "IF."

But yes, IIRC, that was the point LE was making when they seemingly misinterpreted what was on surveillance tape, saying RH appeared concerned because folk or folks were walking towards (or near? ) his car.

And, aside from what has been stated or testified to or mis-stated, and just as an IMO, morning as in a period of time during which Cooper woke up, if asleep, and found himself alone in the car, what defies belief IMO is that he would stayed quiet and still enough to not have been noticed or heard by anyone walking anywhere near that car.

There wasn't going to be many people walking around the parking lot at that time, IMO. Ross got to work late, most people would have been there and working already. By the time many people would have just been walking around the parking lot (lunch time) Cooper would have already been dead.

 

[ScotAng]

I think I've only commented here once or twice, not since the trial started but followed along with you all since the beginning.

I'm afraid I don't buy into any of RH's story. His day starts with routine, based around Cooper and himself. Even when late, he has a routine (in the main). Not that day. I have big problems with him not noticing Cooper when getting into the car; a) odour - there's no doubt in my mind there would be an odour of some description, particularly in relation to heat, humidity, body waste, time and Coopers' size - which could be relevant re decomp. I won't go on about that now.

b) A huge red flag for me (and a possible indicator the seat was too small for Cooper) is his legs. We see how they're splayed and risen in the cs photo. They would be visible 'overhanging' the car seat at an angle. In the height of fear and distress, toddlers are more likely to straighten out, kick out. Cooper would instinctively use his legs and feet to push off the back seat for leverage to try and escape his situation. His little legs could've fallen to the sides in exhaustion of course, but given the feet to back-seat distance, if room, I would imagine rigid fear would keep him pushing back, until the end of whatever finally took him. I'm sorry. Lord knows the torment of this toddler.
Are we to believe RH didn't see any sign of this either? Not a glance, didn't sense him, nothing. When he arrives late for work he sits for 30 seconds or so while Cooper's in the car. Yet on leaving work early, he gets in and takes off immediately for a meet with mates he's informed he'll be late for. It just doesn't compute.

This also bothers me, and I wonder when (if) it'll come into play in the trial. Cooper would have died no matter which seat it was. bbm If proven, there can only be one explanation for it (unless faulty and had been sent back to the manufacturer ....) RH did not want to see his face. 'Dreaded' it, even.

During a probable cause hearing on Thursday, Cobb County Police Detective Phil Stoddard testified that the boy was 'several inches' too big for the child seat, the Atlanta Journal-Constitution reported.
He added that the parents had bought a new, forward-facing child seat just six weeks ago but they switched back to his old seat for reasons that are not yet clear.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2683625/.html

 

[Hope4More]

If the DT wants to say that is what RH said shortly after Cooper's death, that is one thing.

On the other hand, if the DT wants to push the narrative that Cooper "must have fallen asleep" in an effort to explain how Cooper was forgotten, you can put me in the premeditated category because the ONLY way that can be known for certain is if Ross knew Cooper was in the car.



Ross's opinion = speculation.

If RH forgot Cooper was in the car until he peeled into that parking lot 7 hours later, then the reality is that absolutely no one, including Ross Harris, can be "certain" about whether or not Cooper was asleep. Not RH, not the defense, and not the State.

There's nothing unique whatsoever about all parties at trial other than the defendant (and in this case , perhaps even the defendant) not knowing for certain or even at all about particulars of a crime or contextual points, etc.

The defense will of course present a narrative, and Cooper asleep in the car is IMO a compelling narrative because it provides a plausible explanation for why RH wasn't aware of Cooper. I don't understand at all why you'd make a leap to premeditation if RH's attorneys provide this explanation in their defense.

 

[GA_Peach]

If RH forgot Cooper was in the car until he peeled into that parking lot 7 hours later, then the reality is that absolutely no one, including Ross Harris, can be "certain" about whether or not Cooper was asleep. Not RH, not the defense, and not the State.

There's nothing unique whatsoever about all parties at trial other than the defendant (and in this case , perhaps even the defendant) not knowing for certain or even at all about particulars of a crime or contextual points, etc.

The defense will of course present a narrative, and Cooper asleep in the car is IMO a compelling narrative because it provides a plausible explanation for why RH wasn't aware of Cooper. I don't understand at all why you'd make a leap to premeditation if RH's attorneys provide this explanation in their defense.

Best case scenario - Cooper falling asleep in the car is wild speculation. If the DT wants to maintain it as anything other than wild speculation, then Ross knew Cooper was in the car. If Ross knew Cooper was in the car, he did not forget him. Guilty of malice murder.

ETA - As a side note, I don't even believe that this scenario is plausible. Could a child fall asleep in 90 seconds? Possible, yes. Likely, no. Infants may nod off quickly in the car, but toddlers/preschoolers don't as a general rule.

ETA2 - Ross can't remember that Cooper was in the car, but he can reasonably draw the conclusion that Cooper was asleep? Not buying it. It's a ridiculous scapegoat. The crux of this criminal case is whether or not Ross "forgot" Cooper. On the one hand, the DT wants us to believe that Ross has no memory that Cooper was in the car, but they may attempt to use some of Ross's thoughts to create a plausible theory. It doesn't make any sense for the DT to use Ross's thoughts to piece together or explain that which he totally forgot. JMO