Trial - Ross Harris #9

[katydid23]

Is the DT claiming FBS? If so, has the state attacked it effectively? Or, shown how RH doesn't fit what's known about FBS?

They set out their claims of FBS by putting Dr Brewer on the stand to describe how people can forget a baby in a hot car in a matter of seconds, especially if stressed, fatigued and having a change in routine. That is all textbook FBS scenarios.

The State pushed back somewhat, but I will think they were saving their ammo for Dr Diamond. So the DT's decision to pull him threw the State off of their game. And maybe, as Minor suggested, that was part of their strategy?

Both sides will discuss FBS a lot during their closings tomorrow, imo.

 

[gitana1]

Voir dire, second try, spoke directly to this, tried to weed out jurors who found it impossible to believe anyone could forget a child in a car, because, you know, a child is not a cup of coffee, a purse, leftovers,etc. etc.

I've been reading up on a great number of hot car cases, and what leaps out as much as anything else is that public opinion isn't always a universal rejection of the possibility the deaths were accidental. Instead, opinion seems very much influenced by LE's initial handling of the scene and investigation, and by who the responsible parent was - mom or dad, "pillar of the community" or average Joe.

I know statutes for this cases vary so much state by state it's difficult to understand how they're addressing the same "crime." A dad in CT (pillar of the community) who did exactly what Ross did, but who is facing a misdeamor charge and a penalty of one year in prison, tops. A dad in FL, a public defender (pillar of the community) who didnt even drive anywhere, just left his kid in the car, in a state where a dead child in a car results in an automatic charge of aggravated manslaughter, who may not be charged with anything at all, ditto the teacher in Ohio (average joe, but bonus points for being a teacher) who forgot her child in a car in a school parking lot all day.

The greatest rarity is for a parent to have been charged the same day, without any investigation at all. It just doesn't happen very often, and when it does, in the cases I've read about, that parent gets out on bail.

But not Ross.

No, there is a lot that is different about perceptions of this case than folks "naturally" rejecting the possibility this was an accident.

Great points. You make sense. However as many people have pointed out, Ross is nothing like those other cases. The forgetting was irrefutably within a minute or so of intense interaction with his son. He wasn't distracted by any call or text as he drove to the intersection. The location of the car seat. A trigger occurring immediately as he forgot him. He was 100% educated and aware of FBS, the risk of hot car deaths and how to prevent them, and that awareness was recent. His deep ambivalence and dissatisfaction with his family life and status. His often very nonchalant behavior during the interrogation and after. Etc. So vastly different.

 

[katydid23]

Cutting to the chase. I think what the jury finds will depend on what they choose as a starting point for deliberations. If their starting point is whether or not it was possible for Ross to have forgotten Cooper and to have not remembered him for the rest of the day, I think it's possible for them to find him guilty of malice murder.

If their starting point is whether or not the State proved Ross had intent, I think they're going to reject malice murder, but find that his very ability to forget Cooper and to not remember him, given all the cues, is enough to find him guilty not criminal negligence and 2nd degree CC, no matter how the judge instructs them on the law.

And, I'm not going to be surprised at all if they hang on one or more of the core charges.

No matter what the outcome, have to say this is the first time following a trial on WS that I will be unambivalently glad when it's over and done.

I totally agree that their 'starting point' will have a big impact upon their deliberations. I am so curious to see whjich jurors are the final 12;

If they have a strong foreperson then it will be really a big influence on how they maneuver through the jury instructions. Obviously, if it is someone who thinks he is being railroaded by the State, then he will come out much better than if the foreperson believes he killed with malice. Because they can kind of steer things along if they have a strong personality.

 

[scandinavian girl]

Watching the police interrogation tape again is illuminating. First, I note how casually Ross talks about himself as he is being frisked. Sorry, I didn't hear or read about one of the other parents acting this way. He says he worked for the police department, calm, conversational tone, as a dispatcher. He then says his job is going "great". Enthusiastic tone. Then, "I like my job." And he is a guitar player, "I'm the lead guitar player at [unintelligible]." Casual, calm tone. Around minute 27.

[video=youtube;vOkKqENIBww]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOkKqENIBww[/video]

But it's at 1:23:15, where he starts talking about his knowledge of FBS and how to prevent it, the dangers, etc. To me, it is clear that he is trying to get the detectives to associate his case with the case he just saw on the news, trying to explain it away. Sort of like: "I'm a good, concerned dad. I would never do something like that. But there was this news report and it happens." The context right before he made these statements was he was asked how he thinks this happened and was asked to explain how it happened and he started talking about how going into CFA with his son was different 'I never go into CFA" and how he just failed to turn to daycare and his mind just made him keep going. That's when he brings up this other case and the vet video. I think like many criminals he is not that bright:

"I would never leave him in the car. I just watched news reports, there was a news report of a guy who did this, just like me. And now he's an advocate for when you park, you turn around and look again and I've been doing that because the worst fear of my..for me is to leave my son in a hot cart. And then recently I saw a vet on the internet who said even if you have your windows rolled down and regardless, I;m going to show you how hot it can get in the car, if you think you can just leave your pets in the car, roll your windows down down, 5 minutes, you can't do that. And I watched that and [unintelligible] it would be terrible if my son were in the car, and I would hate that. When I was working for Cumberland Police, we had a canine officer leave his dog in the car, for 10 minutes...[his tone here is, to me, one used when someone is explaining to someone, step, by step, exactly how something simple works] um and dog died of heat exhaustion immediately upon [unintelligible] black suburban. Um, so that happened. [Explaining how this occurs]. I;m aware. I just can't believe... [incredulous tone. Wonderment. Not grief, anger or shock]."

http://lawnewz.com/video/watch-justin-ross-harris-police-interview-played-in-court/

BBM This made my hair stand up, I didn´t hear it during the trial but when I read it my one and only thought was RH thought it would only take a few minutes for a living being to die in a car. Thank you.

 

[Zoobiegirl]

Can someone tell me how they determine who is on the jury and who is left as alternates? Also, when does an alternate come in and why? only if there is illness or similar reason for one of the jury to drop out during deliberations?

 

[PenElaine]

And didn't delete anything off his phone or computer :thinking:

#oldpersontechdumb here but when you delete stuff from your phone/computer is there not a way for super tech-savvy people to find out you did so? Is everything forever erased once you delete? Sorry, I'm being honest here but given that Ross was an IT guy, wouldn't deleting incriminating things be more incriminating?

Regardless of the answer to this (possibly dumb question), IMO he didn't think he would be investigated. He read/heard about at least one FBS case and determined he would be treated with overwhelming sympathy, not be arrested. Ergo, no investigation.

And again, JMHO, but narcissists/sociopaths covet attention and sympathy- kinda like the Mauchensen by Proxy (not sure if I got that correct but hopefully YKWIM) folks who thrive on the sympathy THEY receive for dealing with their own child's (real or manufactured) illness. Perhaps Ross was excited by the idea that he would be smothered by love from friends, family and strangers alike for having to endure the loss of his beloved "joker".

 

[Hope4More]

I totally agree that their 'starting point' will have a big impact upon their deliberations. I am so curious to see whjich jurors are the final 12;

If they have a strong foreperson then it will be really a big influence on how they maneuver through the jury instructions. Obviously, if it is someone who thinks he is being railroaded by the State, then he will come out much better than if the foreperson believes he killed with malice. Because they can kind of steer things along if they have a strong personality.

You surely know how I feel about LE's handling of this case, start to finish. I think it's probable that at least a few of the jurors will believe that LE doubted too much too soon, and refused to yield to flashing neon signs of evidence that didn't support their conclusions.

That said, I don't believe the defense thought it possible they could nullify the State's case simply by pointing out what LE did wrong. The best the defense can hope for, imo, is that they raised enough suspicion about LE's bias for the jury to question the accuracy/meaningfulness of some of the State's key evidence, including just how far away from RH was that carseat, and, did the State take RH's texts about "wanting to be single" out of context?

Maybe if the jury looks more carefully at those pieces of evidence they will reject some or all of them, making malice less likely, or reject the State's argument built on those pieces of evidence , with the same result.

I think that's the best the DT can hope to wring out of their (rightful) critique of LE. I can't imagine any juror being so incensed about what LE did that they are willing to put everything else aside and sympathize with RH, or to give him a free pass. I don't, and I'm willing to bet these jurors are far less likely to do so.

 

[Hope4More]

#oldpersontechdumb here but when you delete stuff from your phone/computer is there not a way for super tech-savvy people to find out you did so? Is everything forever erased once you delete? Sorry, I'm being honest here but given that Ross was an IT guy, wouldn't deleting incriminating things be more incriminating?

Regardless of the answer to this (possibly dumb question), IMO he didn't think he would be investigated. He read/heard about at least one FBS case and determined he would be treated with overwhelming sympathy, not be arrested. Ergo, no investigation.

And again, JMHO, but narcissists/sociopaths covet attention and sympathy- kinda like the Mauchensen by Proxy (not sure if I got that correct but hopefully YKWIM) folks who thrive on the sympathy THEY receive for dealing with their own child's (real or manufactured) illness. Perhaps Ross was excited by the idea that he would be smothered by love from friends, family and strangers alike for having to endure the loss of his beloved "joker".

Hi Pen.

That assumes he is a narcissist/sociopath (no evidence of that, and plenty of evidence to the contrary); that he didn't genuinely love Cooper (no evidence of that, and 100% consensus of people who knew him that this is untrue); that he premeditated Cooper's death (no direct evidence this was so,and imo only a very flawed circumstantial case for it); and that RH would be so stupid, if he knew anything about FBS , as to think people would feel sympathy for him because he was responsible for his child's death.

Nah......

 

[Hope4More]

BBM This made my hair stand up, I didn´t hear it during the trial but when I read it my one and only thought was RH thought it would only take a few minutes for a living being to die in a car. Thank you.

Well, then no need for him to check 3 hours and 15 minutes later, by going through all that trouble of buying lightbulbs and tossing them in the car, knowing he was on surveillance tape?

 

[PenElaine]

Looks like we west-coasters are the only ones left here for the night. Should be an interesting week to say the least given the impending verdicts of this trial and this country. Just saying, as a Canadian living in the US for the past two decades, I am somewhat grateful that I am disqualified from participating in either event. But I am truly grateful to hang with such a thoughtful and brilliant group of contributors on this forum (the one and only that I follow). Praying for a positive, peaceful and fair result in both events and hope the voting population gives as much thought to their decision as my fellow Websleuthers do here every single day.

ETA: see you all tomorrow and looking forward to debating closing arguments. If we get a verdict watch starting tomorrow, any tips on how to manage following both the election results and the verdict watch? HLN must be pissed that their coverage of the trial will likely be reduced to a scroll ....

 

[Hope4More]

Great points. You make sense. However as many people have pointed out, Ross is nothing like those other cases. The forgetting was irrefutably within a minute or so of intense interaction with his son. He wasn't distracted by any call or text as he drove to the intersection. The location of the car seat. A trigger occurring immediately as he forgot him. He was 100% educated and aware of FBS, the risk of hot car deaths and how to prevent them, and that awareness was recent. His deep ambivalence and dissatisfaction with his family life and status. His often very nonchalant behavior during the interrogation and after. Etc. So vastly different.

I don't think his case WAS vastly different, actually. I think what makes his case appear so vastly different to many is a function of how LE handled the initial scene and investigation (who knows what suspicion could have been raised in other cases if LE had seized suspect's phones and had carte blanche to search the contents?) as well as the trivial choice he made to take Cooper to CFA, thus allowing LE to pinpoint the precise timeframe in which RH had to have forgotten Cooper.

Taking up just one other point, because it's key to the State's case for malice: RH's alleged deep ambivalence and deep dissatisfaction about his family life. I don't agree with that either. He apparently had very real and very serious problems with intimacy in his marriage, and he clearly didn't take his marriage vows seriously, going all the way back to 2010. His problems with Leanna did not , by every single account, though, interfere with his desire to have a child, with his joy when Cooper was born, and with his hands on, constructive, healthy, loving bond with Cooper that not one person in their lives failed to observe.

If Leanna had turned up dead and RH was a suspect , I'd be more more likely to believe RH calpable of murder. But Cooper? No. IMO the evidence just doesn't support the State's case for malice.

 

[katydid23]

Looks like we west-coasters are the only ones left here for the night. Should be an interesting week to say the least given the impending verdicts of this trial and this country. Just saying, as a Canadian living in the US for the past two decades, I am somewhat grateful that I am disqualified from participating in either event. But I am truly grateful to hang with such a thoughtful and brilliant group of contributors on this forum (the one and only that I follow). Praying for a positive, peaceful and fair result in both events and hope the voting population gives as much thought to their decision as my fellow Websleuthers do here every single day.

ETA: see you all tomorrow and looking forward to debating closing arguments. If we get a verdict watch starting tomorrow, any tips on how to manage following both the election results and the verdict watch? HLN must be pissed that their coverage of the trial will likely be reduced to a scroll ....

I think one of the reason I have been so focused on this trial is because I am trying hard to ignore the ugliness of our current election cycle...:usa: ython:

 

[BrownRice]

I've only been able to follow the trial via WS so haven't seen much of the videos (I watched some of the interrogation at police station and LH/RH). I keep going back and forth if it was intentional, but feel he was neglectful regardless and should be held accountable for that. I'm starting to lean towards murder though. The other day, a poster (I think Katy?) suggested it was a spur of the moment idea for Ross and that really resonated with me. And I believe he thought it would be a painless death. Coop would just get tired and go to sleep. I think if he knew what a horrible, painful death the child experienced, he would not have done it. But this was the easy way out for him and in a spur of the moment decision, he opted for quick gratification of one less responsibility pulling on him.

He wasn't a doting dad. He sexted all day long. He didn't play I Spy (or any other engaging activity) with Coop at CFA. He sexted. It wasn't a "special" daddy/son breakfast. It would be interesting to see if he even talked to him. He obviously didn't in the car.

 

[arkansasmimi]

[video=twitter;795477642644426752]https://twitter.com/LatoniaPHines/status/795477642644426752[/video]

 

[watergirl62]

I am still on the fence here. In 2014 I was disappointed that the DP was taken off the table! Now it's a battle between my intuition / heart that tell me I am certain it was an intentional 'forget' and my analytical brain - I am a scientist - and must only consider the data points I may have.

They may 'suggest' a particular scenario, and things may appear to follow my theory, but at the end of the day, I can only report what the data tells me and couch any interpretations I can't back up with data with non-definitive verbs. I have to sign and seal those reports.

Sigh...

I a willing to settle for conviction in the lesser charges and am hoping for a conviction based on criminal negligence. That seems the best case scenario in my mind.

Thankful we are ahead of schedule and now awaiting closing arguments and jury instructions. This trial has been so exhausting. Too much internal conflict!

RIP Cooper. :rose:



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[EquallyDivided]

#oldpersontechdumb here but when you delete stuff from your phone/computer is there not a way for super tech-savvy people to find out you did so? Is everything forever erased once you delete? Sorry, I'm being honest here but given that Ross was an IT guy, wouldn't deleting incriminating things be more incriminating?

Regardless of the answer to this (possibly dumb question), IMO he didn't think he would be investigated. He read/heard about at least one FBS case and determined he would be treated with overwhelming sympathy, not be arrested. Ergo, no investigation.

And again, JMHO, but narcissists/sociopaths covet attention and sympathy- kinda like the Mauchensen by Proxy (not sure if I got that correct but hopefully YKWIM) folks who thrive on the sympathy THEY receive for dealing with their own child's (real or manufactured) illness. Perhaps Ross was excited by the idea that he would be smothered by love from friends, family and strangers alike for having to endure the loss of his beloved "joker".

Absolutely, in addition to how we have heard about RH's need to be the center of attention - this is spot on.

Do you remember another narcissist who thought they were smarter than everyone else, Jodi Arias?

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[arkansasmimi]

o/t be safe WS Family

[video=twitter;795604173047873536]https://twitter.com/KRLD/status/795604173047873536[/video]

 

[Rayemonde]

Absolutely, in addition to how we have heard about RH's need to be the center of attention - this is spot on.

Do you remember another narcissist who thought they were smarter than everyone else, Jodi Arias?

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I remember another person who had a secret double life - a sordid sexual life even though it was against everything he believed in and preached, and whose friends and family had no idea what he was really like. Travis Alexander. It obviously didn't make him a psychopath, a violent person or a murderer, though. Luckily the jury saw that.

 

[Hoosgirl]

JMHO, there are some who are/were so hard set that RH was guilty coming into the trial, it did/does not make any difference what testimony or evidence was provided. And if the verdict goes their way, they "knew it" if not.... then they still "knew it" and the jury got it wrong. Same thing, different trial.

I think that is true, mimi, but there are others of us reading along that have been swayed onto the fence by the points brought up by other posters. While it gets a tad testy in here at times, I appreciate the back and forth because it (sometimes uncomfortably) makes me think more critically. As I mentioned before, these jurors sure have their work cut out for them. I think it will be a long deliberation and I look forward to their verdict. And I really hope we get some juror interviews!

 

[turaj]

I think one of the reason I have been so focused on this trial is because I am trying hard to ignore the ugliness of our current election cycle...:usa: ython:

same here...not even paying any attention to the election...