trial thread: 04/03/2012

[Hello_Kitty]

Also just to add to that, even if one of the farmer's beef cattle had died of natural causes on the farm, there are special trucks that come around and pick it up, most likely not more than a day later.

It's called a rendering plant. When one of my horses died, I had to call the renderers to have my horse picked up. Now if are a cattle rancher/farmer you send your animals to a slaughterhouse (hate that word)

 

[Wondergirl]

Mark Carcasole ‏ @MarkCarc1010

#ToriStafford's father Rodney got up and left after his gf shortly into autopsy photos displayed at #Rafferty trial.


Mark Carcasole ‏ @MarkCarc1010


...But pathologist Dr. Pollanen testifies #ToriStafford's body was too far decomposed to "asses injury" to sexual organs. #Rafferty

 

[antiquegirl]

TLM testified they used water bottles to clean up after the fact.

Yes, she did. What an interesting little detail to include. :waitasec: Why didn't they toss those caps in with the empty bottles and other evidence they removed from the scene? Sounds suspiciously like they were planted in there on purpose.

And if they did find MTR's fingerprints on them? It only proves that he was at the scene, which has already been suggested by the defence. Whether the water was drunk, or used to clean up, can never be determined. Either way, it proves nothing more than what has already been established. So far, at least.

JMO

 

[Wondergirl]

According to Pollanen, there is no forensic evidence #ToriStafford was wearing pants or underpants

Lnd. Community News ‏ @LCNews1
Jury warned of disturbing images to come as autopsy testimony begins: http://wp.me/p1i3yb-fc6 #RaffertyTrial

Torso well preserved, compared to the rest of the body. Pollanen says Tori's genitals and anus were decomposed. Biological samples taken.

Due to the decomposition, there were no signs of sexual assault. Also not reasonable to expect to find any.

RaffertyLFP: Court on break until 2:30 p.m

BBM: There are many instances of human remains found, where sexual assault is suspected, and because of the advanced stage of decomposition, some signs are not there.

There are other indicators of sexual assault.

JMO

 

[Sailor Bug]

God Bless Tori's Family...I can't imagine what they are going through listening to this graphic testimony about their precious princess...just heartbreaking

 

[Oldsoul2]

Another thought, how did MR know that the rock pile wouldn't be lifted soon after he left Tori there? How did he know that more rocks would be piled thereafter? Did this owner ever hire a landscaping company for his land, did MR work for them? Did MR already know that rock piles on wide landscapes are common dumping grounds because I didn't know that.

 

[Sillybilly]

I'm sure this has been asked before, but do we know if they ever found Tori's slacks and undies?

 

[maxfactor]

Yes, she did. What an interesting little detail to include. :waitasec: Why didn't they toss those caps in with the empty bottles and other evidence they removed from the scene? Sounds suspiciously like they were planted in there on purpose.

And if they did find MTR's fingerprints on them? It only proves that he was at the scene, which has already been suggested by the defence. Whether the water was drunk, or used to clean up, can never be determined. Either way, it proves nothing more than what has already been established. So far, at least.

JMO

IMO, there is a possibility that little Tori had picked those up and was squeezing them in her hands. Very early in the testimony to think they don't prove anything.

 

[nettie_82]

Linda Nguyen ‏ @LindaNguyenPN
#ToriStafford's mum, Tara McDonald, seen leaving courthouse crying. Dad Rodney Stafford reportedly ran out of room during photos #Rafferty


MY HEART BREAKS for these people.

 

[maxfactor]

I'm sure this has been asked before, but do we know if they ever found Tori's slacks and undies?

I don't believe so SB, I think they had been put in the bag with TLM's coat which MR allegedly used to clean himself up.

 

[Sailor Bug]

No sillybilly they did not find Tori's undies and slacks

 

[Juris_Prudence]

Yes, she did. What an interesting little detail to include. :waitasec: Why didn't they toss those caps in with the empty bottles and other evidence they removed from the scene? Sounds suspiciously like they were planted in there on purpose.

And if they did find MTR's fingerprints on them? It only proves that he was at the scene, which has already been suggested by the defence. Whether the water was drunk, or used to clean up, can never be determined. Either way, it proves nothing more than what has already been established. So far, at least.

JMO

Um I disagree. The caps could have been found by TLM in the car and tossed in by her. Even if his fingerprints are one one or both caps, it doesn't prove that he was at the scene - rather, it proves that he touched the caps at some point. I realize Derstine has already suggested MR was at and helped clean up the murder scene but bottle caps in with the remains, even with his fingerprints on them do not in my view prove he commited a crime, or even that he helped clean up a crime scene. They prove only that at some point, he touched a bottle cap, which then ended up in the bag with Tori's remains. :twocents:

 

[Wondergirl]

Linda Nguyen ‏ @LindaNguyenPN
#ToriStafford's mum, Tara McDonald, seen leaving courthouse crying. Dad Rodney Stafford reportedly ran out of room during photos #Rafferty


MY HEART BREAKS for these people.

My heart breaks too, Nettie.

Wouldn't wish having to see their child like that, on my worst enemy.

Devastating.

 

[Juris_Prudence]

IMO, there is a possibility that little Tori had picked those up and was squeezing them in her hands. Very early in the testimony to think they don't prove anything.

I had not even considered that as a possibility but its very possible. I hope we hear more about these as the trial progresses.

 

[scapa]

Um I disagree. The caps could have been found by TLM in the car and tossed in by her. Even if his fingerprints are one one or both caps, it doesn't prove that he was at the scene - rather, it proves that he touched the caps at some point. I realize Derstine has already suggested MR was at and helped clean up the murder scene but bottle caps in with the remains, even with his fingerprints on them do not in my view prove he commited a crime, or even that he helped clean up a crime scene. They prove only that at some point, he touched a bottle cap, which then ended up in the bag with Tori's remains. :twocents:

What if both caps have his fingerprints on them? I guess I wonder what sort of mastermind TLM would have to be in order to secrete bottle-caps touched by MR while keeping them carefully separate from those she has touched, and then ensure that they are in the bags containing the body.

Is there really any reasonable doubt that MR was at the crime scene? If he was, and on his lawyer's theory of the crime helped clean it up, then he has committed a crime -- only the last, I suspect, of many in this series.


s

 

[snoofer]

Cleaning up a crime scene IS committing a crime, and second, would you do that if you played no part in that crime? Don't think he would be sitting in a box right now on trial for murder and rape and detained for the last 3 years if he would have told the truth about the crime he apparently didn't commit.

Yes, there comes a time when it comes down to common sense. To believe or unbelieve details in favor of the defense one would so far have to toss out common sense over and over and over again. imo :twocents:

 

[Macright]

a child was kidnapped by either one or both...she was taken two hours away from her home and eventually murdered by either one or both (although only one has admitted that she did the deed)..her small body was tossed onto a rock pile after receiving multiple blows from a hammer (as TLM has admitted)...we don't know if she was sexually molested before her death and probably never will so I find it very strange that people seem to be so anxious for this detail to be proven...it won't make much difference to the sentence of the accused..he will be locked away for eons..personally I would rather not hear that she suffered a rape before her death...we will never get the truth out of the mouth of TLM and MR is not about to speak...the worst injustice done to this little girl was the murder...I only wish her family had stayed away today or the court had only permitted the jury and the lawyers view the gory slides...seeing those will forever leave an indelible mark in their minds and it won't bring closure...and will always be the first thing they remember when they think of little Tori...I think this time the courts have gone too far to permit the public to witness these pictures.. MOO

 

[snoofer]

a child was kidnapped by either one or both...she was taken two hours away from her home and eventually murdered by either one or both (although only one has admitted that she did the deed)..her small body was tossed onto a rock pile after receiving multiple blows from a hammer (as TLM has admitted)...we don't know if she was sexually molested before her death and probably never will so I find it very strange that people seem to be so anxious for this detail to be proven...it won't make much difference to the sentence of the accused..he will be locked away for eons..personally I would rather not hear that she suffered a rape before her death...we will never get the truth out of the mouth of TLM and MR is not about to speak...the worst injustice done to this little girl was the murder...I only wish her family had stayed away today or the court had only permitted the jury and the lawyers view the gory slides...seeing those will forever leave an indelible mark in their minds and it won't bring closure...and will always be the first thing they remember when they think of little Tori...I think this time the courts have gone too far to permit the public to witness these pictures..

The importance of any and all details that can be prooved should be prooved against the defendant because even though he will still go to jail for taking part...there is still sentencing and what level of inmate he will be made which is a drastic difference in how he will spend his time in prison IMO and whether or not he will ever make it to the outside again. I think that WILL make a difference to her parents. They want the truth and the fullest penalty to those responsible not only in their charges but in the type of time they do...such as supermax or medium security. All those details go into sentencing IMO. I disagree that the murder was the worst for that little girl...I think the extreme fear she felt, the pain, the degradation, the torturous hours from the time she was kidnapped until the moment she expired were the greatest indignity. IMO

 

[antiquegirl]

IMO, there is a possibility that little Tori had picked those up and was squeezing them in her hands. Very early in the testimony to think they don't prove anything.

There is certainly that possibility, but why? And she held onto them during the brutal "stomping" and hammer attack by TLM, and then after she had passed away? Muscles relax before rigor mortis sets in. I'm just not seeing it. But you're right, it's still early.

JMO

At the moment of death, the muscles relax completely—a condition called "primary flaccidity."

http://www.deathreference.com/Py-Se/Rigor-Mortis-and-Other-Postmortem-Changes.html

At the time of death, a condition called "primary flaccidity" occurs. Following this, the muscles stiffen in rigor mortis. In humans, it commences after about three to four hours ...

.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigor_mortis"]Rigor mortis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

 

[snoofer]

There is certainly that possibility, but why? And she held onto them during the brutal "stomping" and hammer attack by TLM, and then after she had passed away? Muscles relax before rigor mortis sets in. I'm just not seeing it. But you're right, it's still early.

JMO



http://www.deathreference.com/Py-Se/Rigor-Mortis-and-Other-Postmortem-Changes.html

.

Rigor mortis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Have you ever cleaned up after a "party" and just when you thought you were done...bottle caps! I liken it to that...tossed in a last minute.:twocents: