Trial Thread 10 May 2012 - Judge's Instructions and maybe deliberations!

[Sailor Bug]

RaffertyLFP: Heeney said if jury is satisfied that Rafferty knew that McClintic was going to strike Tori with a hammer then he was aiding and abetting

Did Rafferty encourage an unlawful act that is objectively dangerous? That's part of the decision tree.

 

[Flowercb]

Nope.

We know what these jurors will be doing when they get home. lol. Internet withdrawal--I definitely would have it if I were one of them. MOO.

 

[otto]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought if you aided and abetted in a kidnapping and the result was murder, whether or not you actually committed the actual crime, it was first degree?

Very confusing.

MOO

I believe that is what the judge said earlier today ... that if participation in the kidnapping results in death, then the sentence has to be 1st degree even if someone ese committed the murder.

"(5) Irrespective of whether a murder is planned and deliberate on the part of any person, murder is first degree murder in respect of a person when the death is caused by that person while committing or attempting to commit an offence under one of the following sections:

(a) section 76 (hijacking an aircraft);

(b) section 271 (sexual assault);

(c) section 272 (sexual assault with a weapon, threats to a third party or causing bodily harm);

(d) section 273 (aggravated sexual assault);

(e) section 279 (kidnapping and forcible confinement); or

(f) section 279.1 (hostage taking)."

http://yourlaws.ca/criminal-code-canada/231-classification-murder

 

[robynhood]

RaffertyLFP Heeney said if jury is satisfied that Rafferty knew that McClintic was going to strike Tori with a hammer then he was aiding and abetting

....sorry twitter was giving me a hard time on last post!

 

[giantalkinghead]

UGH !! SO MUCH FOR TREES !! I'm going gardening again !!

Thanks for all the company today -- let's keep hoping for a 1st Degree murder conviction !!

Later folks....

 

[robynhood]

AM980_Court Did Rafferty encourage an unlawful act that is objectively dangerous? That's part of the decision tree.

 

[~n/t~]

RaffertyLFP: Heeney said if jury is satisfied that Rafferty knew that McClintic was going to strike Tori with a hammer then he was aiding and abetting

Which is manslaughter according to the Judge? Wow....this is so confusing.


Didn't the Crown say it didn't matter who struck the hammer, they would be both guilty of 1st. Degree Murder?


OMG!

 

[snoofer]

There is video at several locations (school, HD) where you do not see TS in the backseat, thus collaborating TLM's statement. Also BA did not see TS which would also leave me to believe that she was hidden (I did not see it rain but I see the puddle).

was not one of his gf into bondage? maybe they had her tied up and such and that stuff got binned, tape etc. MOO

 

[parcheesy]

I would have to try to find it online but I saw Derstine being asked that question on CP24 today and I thought his answer was "for what its worth, that statistically women are more likely to aquit men".

I was mistaken, his answer was "for what its worth, that statistically women acquit more than men"
It's near the end of this video:
http://www.lfpress.com/video/raw-video%3A-comments-from-rafferty%27s-lawyer/1632497472001

 

[otto]

otto...I have seen my fair share of trials Thanx

Case in point: Pickton

"On the fourth and last day of instructions to the jury, the defence requested that the trial judge specifically instruct the jury in accordance with the respective theories of the parties."

http://scc.lexum.org/en/2010/2010scc32/2010scc32.html

 

[Tahorn]

I was trying to point out that it sounded like you didn't give him all of the information. The 2nd comment was to point out that he would never be in that situation.

My husband is pretty up to date on VS trial; however in our business we see weird stuff all the time and shake our heads saying "never saw that coming or just when you thought you heard it all …".

My husband also works in the hotel business and has on many times driven guests, employees and even just strangers in need of assistance to the ferry, airport and even the hospital … with and without children … and a no time did he consider if the child was kidnapped.

I for one would never presume things to be factual until I have heard all sides and gathered evidence to prove or disprove, and even then I assume the possibility of error.

Sometimes it amazes me that some cannot perceive the overview or important things because of concentrating too much on minor details.

 

[~n/t~]

UGH !! SO MUCH FOR TREES !! I'm going gardening again !!

Thanks for all the company today -- let's keep hoping for a 1st Degree murder conviction !!

Later folks....

I'd go chopping a few trees right now myself.

 

[Sailor Bug]

Interesting read

http://csc.lexum.org/en/2007/2007scc53/2007scc53.html

 

[Flowercb]

RaffertyLFP: Heeney summarizes what he will say starting with the general role of jurors

RaffertyLFP: Heeney said the jurors should rely on their memories of the evidence not what he or the lawyers say

Heeney will only review "some of the evidence". He says it is for the jury to decide if evidence is important.

Then why are the lawyers allowed to have closing statements? Obviously, they do impact the jurors decisions in some way--they help them piece everything together. MOO.

 

[~n/t~]

Then why are the lawyers allowed to have closing statements? Obviously, they do impact the jurors decisions in some way--they help them piece everything together. MOO.

I guess Judge Heeney felt the need to do it also. LOL

 

[KMouse]

My husband is pretty up to date on VS trial; however in our business we see weird stuff all the time and shake our heads saying "never saw that coming or just when you thought you heard it all …".

My husband also works in the hotel business and has on many times driven guests, employees and even just strangers in need of assistance to the ferry, airport and even the hospital … with and without children … and a no time did he consider if the child was kidnapped.

I for one would never presume things to be factual until I have heard all sides and gathered evidence to prove or disprove, and even then I assume the possibility of error.

Sometimes it amazes me that some cannot perceive the overview or important things because of concentrating too much on minor details.

Were any of those children made to lay down in the back of the car with a coat over them?

 

[nursebeeme]

RaffertyLFP: The court is seeing a copy of the first decision tree on the video screen

Showing the decision tree. A variety of statements with yes or no answers. Then arrows directing to a new box depending on the answer.

RaffertyLFP: Heeney said the accused must have applied deadly force and have meant to kill the victim to trigger a first degree conviction

I like a decision tree as a tool but it almost sounds too militant here! (moo)

 

[CarrieBean]

UGH !! SO MUCH FOR TREES !! I'm going gardening again !!

Thanks for all the company today -- let's keep hoping for a 1st Degree murder conviction !!

Later folks....

Lol, me too. I'm going to run out and get my veggie plants so I don't have to deal with the Friday or weekend crowd.

 

[Sailor Bug]

RaffertyLFP: Heeney emphasizes to jury that the principal murderer or the aider and abettor are both guilty

Next decision tree is either in the event Rafferty killed Tori, or helped McClintic do it.

Judge shows jury a decision tree that is only to be used if jurors can't figure out if it was McClintic or #Rafferty who held the hammer.

RaffertyLFP: The third decision tree deals with the scenario that the jury can't determine if Rafferty was the main murderer or the aider or abettor

That third decision tree can also only be used if the jury believes beyond a reasonable doubt that #Rafferty was involved and had intent.

10 minute recess

 

[robynhood]

RaffertyLFP Heeney emphasizes to jury that the principal murderer or the aider and abettor are both guilty