Trial Thread 10 May 2012 - Judge's Instructions and maybe deliberations!

[Flossie JMO]

I am not 100 percent sure of what the jury will decide, guess that's always impossible imo. I think it's open for interpretation for them, and I do hope they take full opportunity to ask questions to clarify the instructions and evidence. I think Mr. Justice Thomas Heeney is doing an amazing job. JMO


I think the Crown did a great job, and I also think Derstine is a very capable lawyer. Oh someone posted earlier something like if anyone needed a good lawyer they would suggest hiring Mr. Gowdey to help them. I agree he's done a great job, but unless he resigns, he can't be hired to represent anyone. HTH

 

[Sailor Bug]

Constructive murder means the accused killed the victim, while that person was murdered or kidnapped.

RaffertyLFP: Heeney said "constructive" first degree murder if he caused the death while commiting another crime such as sexual assault

Portions of the decision tree include the jury's potential verdicts on the kidnapping and sexual assault charges.

 

[~n/t~]

RaffertyLFP: Heeney said "constructive" first degree murder if he caused the death while commiting another crime such as sexual assault [via Twitter]


RaffertyLFP: Heeney gets into concept of "constructive" first degree murder an alternative if the jury not satisfied of "planned and deliberate" murder [via Twitter

 

[Jezbel]

Of course not.

However my point was, having an unknown child in one’s car does not automatically imply one knows that child has been kidnapped.

Do you think he still would have not know Tori was kidnapped by the time they left HD, or even when he drove up that laneway?

 

[~n/t~]

Constructive murder means the accused killed the victim, while that person was murdered or kidnapped.

LOL...that tweet makes no sense. If the accused killed the person, the person is dead therefore they can't be murdered if they were already killed.

*sigh*

I must be tired because I'm getting the giggles.

 

[Salem]

Thanks Salem. Perhaps the tweets are making it confusing. One tweet said if the jury believes beyond a reasonable doubt McClintic wielded the hammer then it's manslaughter. But in the Crown's closing, they said it didn't matter who wielded the hammer. KWIM?

That is what is confusing me.

Manslaughter is a lesser charge and I DON'T want the jury getting all this information and if they doubt who wielded the hammer, they will go with the lesser charge. Hope that makes sense.

In the long run n/t - it only matters who swung the hammer IF the jury finds that MR was NOT involved in the kidnapping or sex assault and that he had no INTENT to harm Tori. Then the jury will look at the manslaughter charge.

If the jury finds that MR had intent in any of the 3 charges - the jury will never even consider manslaughter (which is where who swung the hammer matters) because their decision tree will take them down a different path to the verdict.

First the jury will consider the 3 main charges and they will only look at lesser charges where they find that MR did not have the "mind" or "intent" needed to commit the particular crime. Personally, I don't see that happening, but I am glad that lesser charges are being included, just in case.

Salem

 

[Salem]

LOL...that tweet makes no sense. If the accused killed the person, the person is dead therefore they can't be murdered if they were already killed.

*sigh*

I must be tired because I'm getting the giggles.

The tweet was badly worded - means that if the person was murdered during the commission of a felony (kidnapping, sex. assault), than it is 1st degree murder, even though there was no intent or action on the part of the perp.

Salem

 

[Sailor Bug]

RaffertyLFP: Heeney said constructive first degree murder must be connected by the same series of events to sexual assault or kidnapping

Justice Heeney tells the court he should be able to finish his charge tonight. Could send jury send to deliberate around 5 or 6pm.

More decision trees for the constructive path to first degree murder

RaffertyLFP: Court recessed for 15 minutes Heeney said he will finish son after

15 minute break.

 

[~n/t~]

RaffertyLFP: Heeney said constructive first degree murder must be connected by the same series of events to sexual assault or kidnapping [via Twitter]

 

[~n/t~]

Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
Justice Heeney tells the court he should be able to finish his charge tonight. Could send jury send to deliberate around 5 or 6pm.

 

[Salem]

I have to go.... but is 4:30 or 5:00 in about an hour or so ET?

Salem

 

[nursebeeme]

I wouldn't be too concerned. I believe the judge is doing this to account for the possibility of the jury finding MR not guilty of kidnapping and sexual assault for instance, but guilty in some capacity, for the murder.

When he gets to constructive 1st degree, everything should be clear.

IMO.

ita.... I am not being very patient today with tweets (smacks own self on hand)

 

[maxfactor]

I have to go.... but is 4:30 or 5:00 in about an hour or so ET?

Salem

Yup Salem, ET.

 

[snoofer]

Are they taking a break or is the judge going to charge through til he sends them to deliberate? MOO

 

[Salem]

Thanks Max - Hopefully I will be back!!!!! I can't wait for them to be sequestered and start deliberating.

Do we need a poll or guestimate thread for how long it will take them to reach the verdict?

Salem

 

[~n/t~]

The tweet was badly worded - means that if the person was murdered during the commission of a felony (kidnapping, sex. assault), than it is 1st degree murder, even though there was no intent or action on the part of the perp.

Salem

Which is exactly what the Crown said, right? If the victim was murdered during the commission of a felony, and even though the accused did not cause intent or action, (wielding hammer) it's still first degree?

 

[parcheesy]

I think I saw a posting that said the jurors will work from 9am to 9pm, until a verdict is reached. I have also seen that decisions are sometimes reached in the middle of the night. If jurors work 9am to 9pm then how is it that a decision is sometimes reached in the middle of the night?

 

[snoofer]

I think I saw a posting that said the jurors will work from 9am to 9pm, until a verdict is reached. I have also seen that decisions are sometimes reached in the middle of the night. If jurors work 9am to 9pm then how is it that a decision is sometimes reached in the middle of the night?

good point

 

[Alison]

Thanks Max - Hopefully I will be back!!!!! I can't wait for them to be sequestered and start deliberating.

Do we need a poll or guestimate thread for how long it will take them to reach the verdict?

Salem

Guesstimate thread for sure. I say 4 hours. So not until tomorrow around 10-11.

 

[KMouse]

I think I saw a posting that said the jurors will work from 9am to 9pm, until a verdict is reached. I have also seen that decisions are sometimes reached in the middle of the night. If jurors work 9am to 9pm then how is it that a decision is sometimes reached in the middle of the night?

I believe if the jury is to state that they are close and wish to keep deliberating they will let them go later.