Trial Thread, Weekend Discussion May 4-5, 2012 Waiting for Closing Arguments

[otto]

<modsnip>

What would be the purpose for introducing a witness to testify that TLM was seen taking Victoria away from her school? Don't we know that without the witness presented by the defence?

 

[Salem]

Don't start fighting and bickering. If you can't respond respectfully - then MOVE PAST THE POST. There is no rule that says you have to respond to every post or that you have to respond to posts you disagree with. JUST MOVE PAST IT.

Salem

 

[Macright]

What would be the purpose for introducing a witness to testify that TLM was seen taking Victoria away from her school? Don't we know that without the witness presented by the defence?

well you see Otto it would show that TLM told another fib...you see she has testified that she was standing by a tree and TS was walking alone...but this witness now has testified that TLM went into the school and picked up TS..now that takes some guts don't you think..to brazenly walk into a school full of teachers etc. and entice a child to go with you, especially if that child did not know you from Adam...so cross another lie off of her statement... the crown knew this as the woman had told them but they choose to not use her as their witness...I find that very strange....wonder why you don't...JMO

 

[swedie]

Maybe once the jury is sequestered, we can have a thread and have our own deliberations?

What does everyone think? We have to deliberate like we are real jury members and actually consider each piece of evidence.....

Other ground rules?

Salem

Salem I have to be very upfront about my opinion in the question you ask. I for one would not see it as a worthy, worthwhile effort. Reading back over the past three years it is apparent there has been much more information gathered on this case as opposed to what the jurors are receiving. Just too much tainted information, rumours, speculations and posters with inside information to make a unbiased deliberation. There is IMHO people who post here who personally know/knew MR or have some sort of connection to him. Based on the evidence there will always be someone who will find for or against because of their background and what they know. Twisting the evidence to suit their side kwim?

The jurors went into MR's trial supposedly and hopefully not knowing much or very little about this case and that is why they were chosen. Here on WS it is a whole different scenario kwim. We have some posters who say they will not make their decision until the jurors have made theirs or at least until they hear the defense's theory. There are posters who have already made their minds up based on evidence and witnesses testimony (logical thinkers IMHO). If the defense had chosen no one instead of granny as a witness and Derstine decide to bypass a closing argument, according to everyone here on WS we would have a hung jury right now as it stands. Of course unless you went be show of hands and majority rules, then I would say MR is guilty. From what I can tell thus far, there are more yay sayers than nay sayers. HTH and MOO.

Of course this is JMHO and I am only one poster here. By all means go ahead if you feel it may be worthwhile. I just thought I would give you MOO seeing as you were asking. Boy I can be a real bubble burster can't I?! lol. Maybe you could call upon six individuals, (chosen by yourself or from a hat) and do it that way on a new thread. Just a suggestion.

 

[Ardy]

I am also reminded of the comments from TM and RS that little TS was a bit of a doddler.........and they were surprised she was already up the hill by 3:32 pm.

Her parents expressed surprise yesterday at how their little girl, known for being "pokey," made it off the school grounds so fast with a stranger no one noticed.

The videotape from the high school shows Tori and the unidentified woman walking north on Fyfe at 3:32 p.m., about two minutes after the girl left school.

"That seems very strange," McDonald said. When they lived two doors from the school, her daughter didn't get home until about 3:45 p.m. she said. "She's pokey. She takes her time putting her coat on. She talks to all her friends. I found it very, very odd that at 3:32 she was fully dressed, had her bag and was up the hill."


http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2009/05/07/9380111-sun.html

I also read an article where TM commented that the school should have a system in place so that parents and kids are matched up before letting them go home.

The comments struck me at the time.........because I always thought TS was allowed to go home alone...........and that would have nothing to do with a parent picking up a child at the school...........

The thoughts that I had out of that...........is that TLM entered the school and helped TS get dressed.

The problem with my thought.........is the teacher testified that TS was dressed and had to go back for her earrings.

Could that mean that TLM was around the classroom and the teacher was at the front doors?

Where exactly was the teacher when she was saying goodbye.......and where are the coats and boots stored........in the hallway?

Something is missing here........IMO...........

 

[Sillybilly]

well you see Otto it would show that TLM told another fib...you see she has testified that she was standing by a tree and TS was walking alone...but this witness now has testified that TLM went into the school and picked up TS..now that takes some guts don't you think..to brazenly walk into a school full of teachers etc. and entice a child to go with you, especially if that child did not know you from Adam...so cross another lie off of her statement... the crown knew this as the woman had told them but they choose to not use her as their witness...I find that very strange....wonder why you don't...JMO

IIRC, the witness did not testify that "TLM went into the school and picked up TS". She testified that she saw her go into the school, did not see her come out. She then later saw her walking up Fyfe with Tori.

 

[Ardy]

Something was bothering me about TLM's testimony that TS didn't want to go into the Tim Hortons when they stopped there.

And then I figured it out.

TS was abducted at 3:30 pm. We don't know what time she last had a bathroom break but can assume it was sometime before that.

They drove to Guelph and stopped at the Tim Hortons and TS did not have a bathroom break.

They went to BA's and TS did not have a bathroom break.

They went to the Home Depot and TS did not have a bathroom break.

They drove around for another hour or so and arrived at the crime scene around 6:30 pm ?

TS had not had a bathroom break for 3 hours or more. She was probably frightened and cold.

How improbable is it that TS had an "accident" and that is why her clothing was removed?

JMO............

 

[LadyL]

Sure.......but the police officers swore an oath before testifying and then perjured themselves, which is more offensive than some of the tactics they used.

And if they get caught doing it............as you mentioned, the guilty go free.

There was a recent case in Woodstock, where some young guy spray painted Nazi symbols on the cenotaph.

He was charged but the charges were thrown out when it was discovered the police illegally looked through his cellphone without a search warrant.

The local legion members were as angry at the police as the young man who did the painting.

That is the danger.........police lie...........get caught.......criminals walk.

JMO...............

[bbm]

really? I remember that incident but never heard the follow-up ...

quite frankly, I believe there's too many criminals that 'walk' because police don't have the right to look through a cellphone without a warrant

 

[Tahorn]

Something was bothering me about TLM's testimony that TS didn't want to go into the Tim Hortons when they stopped there.

And then I figured it out.

TS was abducted at 3:30 pm. We don't know what time she last had a bathroom break but can assume it was sometime before that.

They drove to Guelph and stopped at the Tim Hortons and TS did not have a bathroom break.

They went to BA's and TS did not have a bathroom break.

They went to the Home Depot and TS did not have a bathroom break.

They drove around for another hour or so and arrived at the crime scene around 6:30 pm ?

TS had not had a bathroom break for 3 hours or more. She was probably frightened and cold.

How improbable is it that TS had an "accident" and that is why her clothing was removed?

JMO............

The first thing my daughter did when she got home from school was go to the bathroom...

 

[swedie]

Certainly not to get rid of evidence of a crime but perhaps because it was damaged? ....it did have at least one cut in it according to a neighbour.... but TLM was lying when she said she cut the back seat.
How eco-friendly of him to utilize the city-wide large items garbage day and not throw it out along the roadside.

I think MR got nervous with it sitting out on the curb for days and decided to dispose of it himself far, far away. Probably on one of his runs to Guelph for oxys or London to one of the many women he had eating out of his hand.

This would go to show why LE were not able to find it at the dump. The company who would've picked up the waste from the curb of his mother's house would know exactly where that load from Woodstock area was dumped. It would be interesting to find out if they found the other junk from MR's house which accompanied the car seat for a time on the curb. Afterall, this was big item stuff and wouldn't be that hard to find. Clothing yes, car seat no. JMHO.

 

[Tahorn]

well you see Otto it would show that TLM told another fib...you see she has testified that she was standing by a tree and TS was walking alone...but this witness now has testified that TLM went into the school and picked up TS..now that takes some guts don't you think..to brazenly walk into a school full of teachers etc. and entice a child to go with you, especially if that child did not know you from Adam...so cross another lie off of her statement... the crown knew this as the woman had told them but they choose to not use her as their witness...I find that very strange....wonder why you don't...JMO

The thing was VS wasn't alone, we saw in the video children were walking right behind her and their mother was in front of her ... so she wasn't alone ... not to mention the other people not on video.

 

[Sillybilly]

How improbable is it that TS had an "accident" and that is why her clothing was removed?

JMO............

<rsbm>

I highly doubt either TLM or MTR are the parenting kind who would give two hoots if a child had wet or dirty underpants and tights. If they were only going to kill her, what did it matter? Regardless, why also remove her skirt and jacket?

 

[Sillybilly]

The thing was VS wasn't alone, we saw in the video children were walking right behind her and their mother was in front of her ... so she wasn't alone ... not to mention the other people not on video.

I could be wrong Tahorn, but in the early threads I thought it was somehow determined that the witness and child in the video were on the west side of Fyfe and TLM and Tori on the east side.

Maybe some other posters will have better recall on this.

 

[swedie]

Did they even say she was wearing the earrings? Or we're they found inside the bag she was so inhumanly disposed in?

Or she may have held them in her hand for comfort as it was the closest thing to her mother at this horrific time in her life. I think I mentioned this before way, way, way back. When JayceeD was abducted, they used a stun gun on her and she fell to the ground, off onto the side of the road. NG threw her in the backseat and at some point later Jaycee realized she was holding a pine cone in her hand. She actually felt some sort of comfort from it and it is now a symbol of freedom and reality for her. She wears a silver tiny pine cone around her neck. MOO

 

[Ardy]

[bbm]

really? I remember that incident but never heard the follow-up ...

quite frankly, I believe there's too many criminals that 'walk' because police don't have the right to look through a cellphone without a warrant

http://www.torontosun.com/2011/06/14/swastikas-on-cenotaph-case-thrown-out

 

[swedie]

Sure.......but the police officers swore an oath before testifying and then perjured themselves, which is more offensive than some of the tactics they used.

And if they get caught doing it............as you mentioned, the guilty go free.

There was a recent case in Woodstock, where some young guy spray painted Nazi symbols on the cenotaph.

He was charged but the charges were thrown out when it was discovered the police illegally looked through his cellphone without a search warrant.

The local legion members were as angry at the police as the young man who did the painting.

That is the danger.........police lie...........get caught.......criminals walk.

JMO...............

Well I am sure we wouldn't see that happen in an abduction, rape and murder charge. Defaming public property and the three charges above are at totally different ends of the spectrum IMHO. And did this guy have to pay restitution?

 

[Ardy]

I think MR got nervous with it sitting out on the curb for days and decided to dispose of it himself far, far away. Probably on one of his runs to Guelph for oxys or London to one of the many women he had eating out of his hand.

This would go to show why LE were not able to find it at the dump. The company who would've picked up the waste from the curb of his mother's house would know exactly where that load from Woodstock area was dumped. It would be interesting to find out if they found the other junk from MR's house which accompanied the car seat for a time on the curb. Afterall, this was big item stuff and wouldn't be that hard to find. Clothing yes, car seat no. JMHO.

Woodstock had a policy of a one day a year clean up, so the amount of large items going to the dump was............very large to say the least.

Some townhome complexes had their own little garbage dumps out front while they waited for pickup.

London allows people to throw out anything every week, so there isn't the big spring mess there was in Woodstock every year.

Plus.......the garbage pickers get into everything, tear apart neat piles looking for copper, aluminum, steel......and leave everything scattered all over.

Quite the pile of rubbish and mess...........

I am not surprised they couldn't find the seat in the mountain of garbage at the dump there. Once they dump it..........they drive over it with the bulldozer a few times and then cover it with dirt.

I am not even sure they would know where they dumped it.

JMO

 

[swedie]

I believe the grandfather saw Tori before she was with TLM, so he wouldn't be considered an eye witness to the crime. You're right that a lot of information contained in MSM hasn't been brought up at trial. I think the defense has argued to keep a lot of information out, hence a great deal of legal arguments. I remember a lot of things we found out that IMO go to motive, those things also went to character and were not admissible in court. IMO a lot of nasty details are going to come out when the jury deliberates.

I totally agree Max. I am still feeling very confident MR is not going to be walking free for at least 25 years. That's still MOO.

 

[Ardy]

Well I am sure we wouldn't see that happen in an abduction, rape and murder charge. Defaming public property and the three charges above are at totally different ends of the spectrum IMHO. And did this guy have to pay restitution?

The case was thrown out..........and 28 additional charges with it.

I doubt he volunteered to pay restitution, so the public loses and the guilty may go free.

One would hope that LE would mind the legalities and not violate an accused Charter of Rights in any criminal proceeding, lest the verdict be overturned on appeal.

The police have been granted all the legal powers they need to do their job. They don't have to violate enshrined citizen rights to investigate crimes. More importantly, they should not be lying about it under oath.

Police conduct is very important to gaining public trust.

Look to the recent events in the US involving the Secret Service........what were they thinking?

It harkens to the culture of the service and how seriously the leadership takes it's professionalism.

JMO...........

 

[snoofer]

It's not like he had six weeks to clean it up. Does anyone know why he threw his backseat in the garbage anyway, coincidence? JMO

yes what is HIS reason for getting rid of car seat. LE has THEIR idea on why. MOO Yep another coincidence we r supposed to believe.