Trial Thread, Weekend Discussion May 4-5, 2012 Waiting for Closing Arguments

[OhSoCurious]

I always questioned why MR had to go to the USA to buy another pair of the PUMA brand running shoes. They are available in Canada.

The shoes are way cheaper in the States. JMO

 

[Wondergirl]

Of further interest, with respect to Canadian Law, the following are listed as common issues that can arise during deliberations, and cause orders for a new trial.

3.4.2 other judge-jury relations

Apart from the judge's final charge to the jury, numerous other issues that frequently arise in the interactions between the judge and the jury during deliberations are the subject of appeal proceedings and give rise to orders for a new trial.



Among those issues are the conditions or the procedure to follow for:

• responding to requests to rehear the testimony of a witness or a statement: Should such requests be met? Can the jury ask to rehear all the testimony? Can a part of the testimony of one witness or one statement be reheard or must it be reheard in its entirety? If yes, must the judge remind the jury that it must consider the remainder of the evidence? Should the rehearing take place in the courtroom or in the jury room?53

• investigating allegations of misconduct or partiality within the jury during the trial or deliberations: Should the juror concerned be questioned? If yes, in the presence of the other jurors or not? In private or in open court? In the presence of the parties or not? Can the parties question the juror directly? Should the judge give them the opportunity to make submissions? Distinction between matters that are intrinsic to jury deliberations, and therefore governed by deliberation secrecy (s. 649 cr.c.), and those that extrinsic to the deliberations?54

• allowing rehearing of arguments, giving a transcript of the arguments to the jury or asking counsel to produce a written summary of their respective theories for handing to the jury: Should such requests be met?55 if yes, can the arguments of only one of the parties requested by the jury be provided or must the arguments of both parties be provided?56

• giving a transcript or written copy of the instructions to the jury: Is the judge required to provide a transcript of the judge's jury instructions on the request of the jury?57 can the request be specific or can it be general?58

• giving the text of the offences to the jury: What precautions should the jury take when part of the provision has already been declared unconstitutional?59

• answering the questions of the jury: The steps to be followed by the judge and the distinction between a substantive question, which must be answered in open court in the presence of the accused, and an administrative question, which can be settled directly between the judge and the jurors.60 can questions be addressed to witnesses, and, if so, how (can the judge invite jurors to address questions to witnesses? Can the jurors ask questions during the examination of a party or only when the party has completed the examination? Should the questions be submitted to the judge beforehand? Should the debate on the admissibility of a question be carried on in the absence of the jury?61

Since grounds for appeal relating to jury instructions are often accompanied or completed by grounds relating to the above issues, it could be advisable to address them in the same manner as instructions. Once these relatively confined issues would be identified, the steering committee considered whether they should be addressed by further technical additions to the criminal procedure or if they should rather be the subject of judicial guidelines from the canadian judicial council.


http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/esc-cde/scje-cdej/p7.html

 

[crazyladi]

not sure who it was now that questioned my post about "tooth and nail" (my words) but this poster above states that MR's lawyer fought very hard for evidence to be excluded....I sort of changed my wording somewhat but regardless it all means the same in the short and long of it... I asked if she could provide some link that Dirk did just that..fought "tooth and nail" to have evidence excluded. maybe you could answer the question for me though...

respectfully......JMO JMO JMO

It was me that ask. I see there is so such statement.

 

[Alison]

Wow. These women took time out of their lives to testify in a murder trial and you call them sexist (and yes, women can be sexist towards other women) and disparaging names.

It is also not correct to say they were trying to find people to say anything derogatory about him. It was about corroborating timelines and phone records. You also will know, if you have been following the case that no one can produce a link that says that since it it against the law for the media to report on anything that happened when the jury was out.

Exactly! the reason I was saying that Dirk was fighting to have evidence not admitted is because there would be hours of legal discussions then the judge would direct the jury to not take into evidence the amount of women he had on the go etc etc so I put 2 and 2 together and figured Derstine was fighting hard to have evidence withdrawn or not admitted JMO . I believe Derstine has provided MR the best defence with what he had while preventing extra evidence from coming into play through character witnesses JMO.

 

[Heliotrope]

I always wondered if LE wished they could retract their initial use of the word "nefarious", as it seems LE was mislead and misinformed from the "get go" JMO

Is there a scenario regarding the murder of a child where the motives aren't nefarious?

 

[JayFriend]

I always questioned why MR had to go to the USA to buy another pair of the PUMA brand running shoes. They are available in Canada.

Perhaps he had bought the original pair in the USA and that kind wasn't sold in Canada. (Then again, al lot of people shop in the US for stuff because sometimes it's cheaper, but they never consider their time and gas money.)

 

[crazyladi]

outlets...I go there all the time...shopping that is....JMO much cheaper in some things....better prices.. even at that time with the exchange rate...now it is like winning the lottery with the savings because of the drop in US $$$$$ JMO JMO

I go black Friday shopping every year for the last 5 yrs. there are not that many deals especially when it comes to sports shoes. Never any deals. Jmo

 

[Macright]

I go black Friday shopping every year for the last 5 yrs. there are not that many deals especially when it comes to sports shoes. Never any deals. Jmo

ah my dear you are shopping in the wrong places... never shop on black Friday's....too crowded....actually I'll be cross border shopping in a couple of weeks. again.....will check out price of puma's but sadly this case will be over by that time and I will be out of here...

 

[OhSoCurious]

Is there a scenario regarding the murder of a child where the motives aren't nefarious?

It just seems people try to equate "nefarious" with rape for their convenience of proving a point. It has a broader definition of course. JMO

 

[Ardy]

Here's another reason Rafferty should have testified if he's actually not guilty. Of course, Derstine expects the jury to remember Rafferty's gesturing and perhaps they will, but it most certainly cannot be considered evidence.

MR probably told the police he was innocent.

They didn't let him go.

He pleaded not guilty.

They didn't let him go.

If he takes the witness stand and says he is innocent.

Are they going to let him go?

The point being.............he is charged with 3 serious crimes.

Dirk Derstine is a very capable lawyer. He has trial experience. He knows the strong and weak points of the Crown case and he knows the strong and weak points of his case for the defense.

MR could ignore Derstine's advice, and make his own legal decision.

This old adage would come to mind..........

An accused who legally represents himself has a fool for a client.

When lawyers are in trouble.........they hire other lawyers to represent them.

JMO.................

 

[Alethea Dice]

Again, I think this is hindsight. She tossed it the trash, didn't she, as she thought a single was no good even for charity?

I found a glove at the bottom of my driveway this morning, I threw it in the trash. I frequently see running shoes tied together and tossed over power lines. (I don't get that at all, BTW - I must be old)

It's really not that ominous to find an article of discarded clothing. Unless it was bloodstained or something, why would you think anything of it? People are slobs.

Thank you. Yes, someone else already had responded. I was questioning it because Swedie had said that it was MR's shoe. So now we know, in reality, it could have been anybody's shoe. Odd that there would only be one.

JMO

 

[Macright]

Perhaps he had bought the original pair in the USA and that kind wasn't sold in Canada. (Then again, al lot of people shop in the US for stuff because sometimes it's cheaper, but they never consider their time and gas money.)

even factoring in all the expenses there are mega savings..and plus the selection is great.. sometimes it's worth it just for that..... JMO trick to it is one has to stay in the US 48 hrs and you can help replenish your liquor cabinet each time...now that is a great savings and well worth the trip....JMO JMO....

 

[crazyladi]

not sure who it was now that questioned my post about "tooth and nail" (my words) but this poster above states that MR's lawyer fought very hard for evidence to be excluded....I sort of changed my wording somewhat but regardless it all means the same in the short and long of it... I asked if she could provide some link that Dirk did just that..fought "tooth and nail" to have evidence excluded. maybe you could answer the question for me though...

respectfully......JMO JMO JMO

Sorry misread this post. Thanks

 

[Jezbel]

do we know for a fact that it was MR's shoe she picked up...it was thrown out ...right... How many times driving along a highway have I seen shoes thrown out...was it ever stated that the shoes she did keep belonged to TLM..even if they were washed they would be able to pull some DNA...I know the laces were done like she did but hey I bet she is not the only one that laced their shoes that way...JMO

Yes the shoes were TLM's. The lady who found them, washed them so she could give them to charity. We don't know if the odd was MR's because she threw it out, so no way to confirm. I would find the tweets from her testimony but I am tired and sick, if you look back through them or the articles you can read the testimony regarding the shoes.

JMO I have never ever seen shoes tied that way.

 

[crazyladi]

even factoring in all the expenses there are mega savings..and plus the selection is great.. sometimes it's worth it just for that..... JMO trick to it is one has to stay in the US 48 hrs and you can replenish your liquor cabinet each time...now that is a great savings and well worth the trip....JMO JMO....

I will be honest I stay there every year for three days. I don't go for the deals as there really are none. I go for the noise at the border and the different nic nacs you can't get in Canada. I am not saying there are no deals at all but they really aren't that great. He needed a specific pair of shoes that's why he was there jmo

 

[crazyladi]

Yes the shoes were TLM's. The lady who found them, washed them so she could give them to charity. We don't know if the odd was MR's because she threw it out, so no way to confirm. I would find the tweets from her testimony but I am tired and sick, if you look back through them or the articles you can read the testimony regarding the shoes.

JMO I have never ever seen shoes tied that way.

I think everyone agreed that since it wasn't mentioned from the crown because it wasn't of importance

 

[crazyladi]

MR probably told the police he was innocent.

They didn't let him go.

He pleaded not guilty.

They didn't let him go.

If he takes the witness stand and says he is innocent.

Are they going to let him go?

The point being.............he is charged with 3 serious crimes.

Dirk Derstine is a very capable lawyer. He has trial experience. He knows the strong and weak points of the Crown case and he knows the strong and weak points of his case for the defense.

MR could ignore Derstine's advice, and make his own legal decision.

This old adage would come to mind..........

An accused who legally represents himself has a fool for a client.

When lawyers are in trouble.........they hire other lawyers to represent them.

JMO.................

They didn't let him go because they had enough evidence to charge him and keep him behind bars until his trial. I disagree if he took the stand it would have made a difference.

 

[Heliotrope]

Here is a useful reference with respect to the duties and guidelines for a Judge instructing a Canadian Jury with a charge at the end of trial.

It may shed some light on why Judge Heeney has taken more time to deal with the issues currently being discussed in the court.

This statistic here, is certainly troubling.



The required elements for a trial judge's final charge to the jury, as imposed by The Supreme Court of Canada:



Principles to guide the Judge's charge to the Jury:



http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/esc-cde/scje-cdej/p7.html

Thanks, WG, that's interesting.

Especially WRT excessive length of instruction - it's sort of like those very long legal disclaimers - of all the people that have iPods, how many have actually read the legal disclaimer on iTunes, and how many just check the "I acknowledge" box. Or software disclaimers, shudder.

There's a limit to the volume and complexity of information we can process. We're not computers, that's why we need computers! Once you reach capacity, you tend to just tune out the rest.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

do we know for a fact that it was MR's shoe she picked up...it was thrown out ...right... How many times driving along a highway have I seen shoes thrown out...was it ever stated that the shoes she did keep belonged to TLM..even if they were washed they would be able to pull some DNA...I know the laces were done like she did but hey I bet she is not the only one that laced their shoes that way...JMO

I do think that the shoes did belong to TLM, although I can't remember why. Did she identify them?

I do think itis possible that the single shoe that she found could have been MTR's, but really I don't know if I would say that with any degree of certainty because she did it have the actual shoe anymore.

 

[crazyladi]

ah my dear you are shopping in the wrong places... never shop on black Friday's....too crowded....actually I'll be cross border shopping in a couple of weeks. again.....will check out price of puma's but sadly this case will be over by that time and I will be out of here...

I must be since we usually do military rd in buffalo and Erie Pennsylvania, grove city etc. buffalo has better deals IMO I will never do Erie again since it was deer hunting season and I was white knuckling it all the way back to our hotel lol.... Best was swerving around deer Carcus back end and swerving around the head 10 seconds later in the dead of night lololol