GUILTY Turkey - Sarai Sierra, 33, NY woman murdered, Istanbul, 21 Jan 2013 - #2

[english]

We need native-speakers Yashim or Lavy, but from what I can tell the Radikal article also says:

-- Amsterdam Ammer had prior drugs convictions
(I think we all pretty much suspected this -- question is, was it small-time stuff for personal use, or was he a player in something bigger? No word on that here...)

-- Bizarrely, from what I can tell from the atrocious google translation, this article is saying the iPad and phone were found with the body?! Maybe the translation is just wrong, or the article is just wrong, because this contradicts what we have heard so far:

Turkish speakers, here's the key section:



Quote:
Saat 19:00’a doğru cesedin kimliği netleşti. Bulunan cansız kadın bedeni 33 yaşındaki Sarai Sierra’ya aitti. İlk bulgulara göre 1 hafta, 10 gün önce öldürülmüştü. Bir yerden düştüğü veya kafasının taşla ezildiği gibi bir görüntü vardı. Vücudunda çizikler ve morluklar vardı. Quote:
Saat 19:00’a doğru cesedin kimliği netleşti. Bulunan cansız kadın bedeni 33 yaşındaki Sarai Sierra’ya aitti. İlk bulgulara göre 1 hafta, 10 gün önce öldürülmüştü. Bir yerden düştüğü veya kafasının taşla ezildiği gibi bir görüntü vardı. Vücudunda çizikler ve morluklar vardı. Montu, pantolonu, Ipad ve cep telefonu yanında yoktu, fakat küpelerine 3 kat şeklinde kolunda sarılı duran altın bilekliğine dokunulmamıştı. İlk belirlemelere göre tecavüz edilmemişti. Sierra’nın tarihi yerlere ve tren yollarına merakı acaba o bölgeye kendi isteyerek mi gitti sorusunu akıllara getirdi.


The word yoktu means they were not, if they were there the word would be vardi.

 

[Yashim]

The only thing I've seen that makes me believe this is possible is that info posted last night about those other women who have been raped- one raped and murdered, I believe- in the same area SS was found.

But LE seems 100% sure rape was not a factory. We're 99% sure robbery wasn't a motive- too much gold jewelry left behind.

So why would someone randomly kill her and not rob/rape her if they had no personal motive to do so?

That's why I stick to my druggie theory. They ask for a few liras, you say no or do something offensive to them. And they attack you.

Or a attempted robbery or rape end up this way. The perp panics and flees the scene. Or perhaps decides no to pursue with the initial motive to draw LE's attention. (But this is too much calculation for a druggie.)

 

[NewYork625]

What am I missing in what I've said? It makes sense to me! Just for example, if she was to meet with someone at the Galata tower at 11am, she could take a stroll across the bridge and even stop for some lunch before a planned meeting up with Taylan at 12:45.

If she had a planned meeting with Taylan at the bridge I would assume it would have been to spend the day sightseeing. Assuming the reason for the meeting is true, a planned meeting to get paid for drug smuggling so soon after meeting with him then makes no sense to me. It seems more likely then that it was a random attack by a gang, and that she fought back hard. I have also considered that someone pushed her off of the wall first, due to the nature of some of her injuries.

 

[ToutCa]

Sorry you keep having to delve into these details. I know it must suck- but know also it's appreciated, and we don't ask you to do it for any reason other than to try and figure what happened.

That said, they're now saying it may not have been murder after all? The one stupid detail we all thought we could agree on may not have been the case? I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around that. They said over and over again in the beginning that this is a murder- definitely. Now maybe not.

I think they deduced from the nature of her injuries as well as her semi-clothed condition that this was definitely murder. Everyone has been consistent on that.

 

[CMac2]

If she had a planned meeting with Taylan at the bridge I would assume it would have been to spend the day sightseeing. Assuming the reason for the meeting is true, a planned meeting to get paid for drug smuggling so soon after meeting with him then makes no sense to me. It seems more likely then that it was a random attack by a gang, and that she fought back hard. I have also considered that someone pushed her off of the wall first, due to the nature of some of her injuries.

So maybe the word "fell" from the above article could actually mean "pushed".

If it were a random attack by a gang, and she was trying to fight them off, there should be more than one perp's DNA found on her, right?

Not that we can bank on it, but I thought it was reported that there was only one other person's DNA present at the scene.

 

[ThinkHard]

The only thing I've seen that makes me believe this is possible is that info posted last night about those other women who have been raped- one raped and murdered, I believe- in the same area SS was found.

But LE seems 100% sure rape was not a factory. We're 99% sure robbery wasn't a motive- too much gold jewelry left behind.

So why would someone randomly kill her and not rob/rape her if they had no personal motive to do so?

I don't think any of them where murdered. It says one was ALMOST bludgeoned to death. Not that she died.

But who's to say these were all the same person anyway...

Also piggybacking off the post about her itinerary...

It says on the 21st she was seen at Galata bridge at 1130....but earlier reports have her at the tower at this point....also she messaged Taylan from the tower at 1133.

I also thought it was weird that she had been at the tower on an earlier date (before the Amsterdam /Munich trip), but then via her message to Taylan was there again on the 21st? Why would a tourist visit the same site twice, when there is so much to see.

Does anyone else find that weird or confusing?

I'm guess this itinerary is based on camera sightings...but some stuff just doesn't add up to me.

 

[CMac2]

That's why I stick to my druggie theory. They ask for a few liras, you say no or do something offensive to them. And they attack you.

Or a attempted robbery or rape end up this way. The perp panics and flees the scene. Or perhaps decides no to pursue with the initial motive to draw LE's attention. (But this is too much calculation for a druggie.)

But if you're so desperate to attack- and (even if accidentally) kill- for whatever little lira/jewelry/otherwise valuable items she may have had on her, why don't you take the jewelry with you when you run?

 

[NewYork625]

Have these cases been solved?

A Swedish tourist was raped at knife point in the same place in January 2007, and in March 2010 a Japanese girl suffered a chillingly similar attack to Sarai's murder when she was bludgeoned about the head with a rock and raped, according to Turkish daily newspaper Takvim.

Another 24-year-old Turkish girl was attacked at knife point at the same spot but managed to fight off her attacker and flee to safety

A drawing of the Turkish girl's attacker might be helpful.

 

[ToutCa]

So maybe the word "fell" from the above article could actually mean "pushed".

If it were a random attack by a gang, and she was trying to fight them off, there should be more than one perp's DNA found on her, right?

Not that we can bank on it, but I thought it was reported that there was only one other person's DNA present at the scene.

Reported is too strong a word.

Some of the chatter in the Turkish press implied incidentally that there was one perp whose DNA was found at the scene. Implied only, and no more specifics than that.

 

[CMac2]

It says on the 21st she was seen at Galata bridge at 1130....but earlier reports have her at the tower at this point....also she messaged Taylan from the tower at 1133.

I also thought it was weird that she had been at the tower on an earlier date (before the Amsterdam /Munich trip), but then via her message to Taylan was there again on the 21st? Why would a tourist visit the same site twice, when there is so much to see.

Does anyone else find that weird or confusing?

I do find this odd too. Especially given the fact her trip had been shortened from its original length of time. She had even less time to see the sights than she originally thought she'd have. This makes it seem even more likely that she would have tried to see the other things that she hadn't seen yet.

Also, remember from TK's meeting with the police- he said she asked him for suggestions of what to see that day (the 21st) and he suggested that place. Why would he have suggested it if she'd already seen it? Why not suggest a different place?

 

[CMac2]

I don't think any of them where murdered. It says one was ALMOST bludgeoned to death. Not that she died.

My mistake on this- you're absolutely right. I was reading it last night from my phone in a club. LOL. I'm so sidetracked by this case that when I went out last night, I kept obsessively checking for updates on the case the entire time! I can definitely see missing a key point like this one!

 

[ThinkHard]

That's why I stick to my druggie theory. They ask for a few liras, you say no or do something offensive to them. And they attack you.

Or a attempted robbery or rape end up this way. The perp panics and flees the scene. Or perhaps decides no to pursue with the initial motive to draw LE's attention. (But this is too much calculation for a druggie.)

Right...if ths was the scenario they would FLEE the scene, not stick around to conceal the body.

 

[ToutCa]

On the push/fall theory: Multiple claims said she was hit repeatedly on the head with a rock (some reports said 5 times), and the murder weapon was found at the scene.

These reports have not been disowned by Turkish LE.

This would rule out the push/fall theory.

(The earliest reports when the body was found said her head injury looked like one that someone might sustain from a fall from a height. But the evidence at the scene and the location of the body exclude that possibility).

 

[ThinkHard]

I think they deduced from the nature of her injuries as well as her semi-clothed condition that this was definitely murder. Everyone has been consistent on that.

I think one article said she had substantial injury to her hip. I wonder if this in on the same side of her body as the head wound....as in something that could be consistent with falling while trying to escape, or being pushed.

But if this is the case...her electronics would have been damaged in the fall, so why take them?

 

[NewYork625]

I respect your feelings -- but it does state iPad/phone found with body (and you're saying that is probably a press lie). Very strange.

I'm puzzled by the itinerary and all the photos they are talking about. If they really don't have the iPad and she only posted 5 Istanbul photos online, how do they know she took all these other pictures everywhere? Where are those pictures?

And how in the heck did they come up with such a specific itinerary? Wow.

Something's up with the lack of photos posted and then these statements she took lots of photos. There are many interpretations, but something's up there for sure.

The assertion that Amsterdam Ammer had prior drug convictions is striking to me as well. If it's true, I wonder if they are minor or suggestive of something more serious?

First, I'm not at all surprised that a young musician in Amsterdam might have a drug conviction in his past.
Also, I wonder if Sarai didn't take many photos and wanted to edit them first before sharing them. Perhaps she did consider making money from the photos and was saving them for that purpose.

 

[belimom]

I was thinking about their financial situation - or rather what we *think* may have been their financial situation. Here's something I haven't seen mentioned: iPads and smartphones are not cheap. Sure, the iPad could have been a gift, but a data plan for a smartphone (even one that was $0 on a 2-yr plan) still is not cheap. I choose to have a flip-phone to avoid the data plan costs. I do have an iPad with a 3G data plan and that is what I choose to pay for rather than also adding what I see as a redundant fee for access on a phone. For someone working part-time (like me - and like Sarai) who doesn't need internet access on their phone, it is an excessive cost that Sarai chose because she wanted it. Text messages and phone calls can be used to reach someone if there is an emergency with a child or someone else.

I guess my point is that they did have enough disposable income for such items. She was working part-time at a chiropractor's office and that may have been so that she could have money herself for such things as this trip. While hard to squeeze in financially for many people, it may not have been such a strain as we have thought it may be.

 

[ThinkHard]

We need native-speakers Yashim or Lavy, but from what I can tell the Radikal article also says:

-- Amsterdam Ammer had prior drugs convictions
(I think we all pretty much suspected this -- question is, was it small-time stuff for personal use, or was he a player in something bigger? No word on that here...)

-- Bizarrely, from what I can tell from the atrocious google translation, this article is saying the iPad and phone were found with the body?! Maybe the translation is just wrong, or the article is just wrong, because this contradicts what we have heard so far:

Turkish speakers, here's the key section:



Quote:
Saat 19:00’a doğru cesedin kimliği netleşti. Bulunan cansız kadın bedeni 33 yaşındaki Sarai Sierra’ya aitti. İlk bulgulara göre 1 hafta, 10 gün önce öldürülmüştü. Bir yerden düştüğü veya kafasının taşla ezildiği gibi bir görüntü vardı. Vücudunda çizikler ve morluklar vardı. Quote:
Saat 19:00’a doğru cesedin kimliği netleşti. Bulunan cansız kadın bedeni 33 yaşındaki Sarai Sierra’ya aitti. İlk bulgulara göre 1 hafta, 10 gün önce öldürülmüştü. Bir yerden düştüğü veya kafasının taşla ezildiği gibi bir görüntü vardı. Vücudunda çizikler ve morluklar vardı. Montu, pantolonu, Ipad ve cep telefonu yanında yoktu, fakat küpelerine 3 kat şeklinde kolunda sarılı duran altın bilekliğine dokunulmamıştı. İlk belirlemelere göre tecavüz edilmemişti. Sierra’nın tarihi yerlere ve tren yollarına merakı acaba o bölgeye kendi isteyerek mi gitti sorusunu akıllara getirdi.


The word yoktu means they were not, if they were there the word would be vardi.

Often translation do not accurately pick up verb suffixes from turkish to english, so the translation is the polar opposite of what written. We had a long discussion and explanation of this yesterday.

 

[Yashim]

The word yoktu means they were not, if they were there the word would be vardi.

You're right. Google says "Jacket, trousers, Ipad and mobile phone was next, but the arm in the form of 3-fold helix earrings gold bracelet touched."

Both parts of sentence should be negative: not next, not touched

It misses "yoktu". Most writings in Turkish press is so colloquial, so informal. A verbatim translation makes no sense.

 

[ThinkHard]

A drawing of the Turkish girl's attacker might be helpful.

Also are we suppose to believe that a 24 year old Turkish girl managed to fight off her attacker but sarai couldn't?

 

[ToutCa]

Also are we suppose to believe that a 24 year old Turkish girl managed to fight off her attacker but sarai couldn't?

Different circumstances, different perp -- why not? [Edit: or different circumstances, same perp...though I doubt it was the same dude]

It could just come down to bad luck...SS slipped at the wrong time, perhaps.

Life doesn't always make sense.