GUILTY Turkey - Sarai Sierra, 33, NY woman murdered, Istanbul, 21 Jan 2013 - #4

[ToutCa]

No, he is not in custody. They are looking for him.

But I believe he might have headed back to his hometown, which may be in Eastern or Southeastern Turkey. But I'm sure they'll get him.

I can only find the article you linked from Vatan so far. Vatan has reported nonsense before on this case, but it sounds like you have heard this is solid information. He certainly sounds like a very good suspect, so I hope they have the physical evidence to nail him if he's the guy.

(Be prepared for a raft of theories that he only disturbed the body after the murder, etc.).

Yashim, you do get partial credit for advocating a random, but lose a lot of points for saying no Turks commit crimes (was that a joke?) and pushing the theory the killer was a weak teenage "druggie" thinner addict until last night when you caught wind of this new information!!!

But you have been the most consistent voice on here saying the perp was a random -- that is fair to say!

 

[ToutCa]

Thats a political point of view. Go back and read their reprting on something like the Duke Lacrosee Rape Hoax. Half of America sees the Times as a left wing rag pushing certain narratives. PLEASE respect other points of view and stop declaring who is credible or not.

There are more interesting aspects of this case to talk about right now...

(popularity and credibility are not the same. "Half of America" no doubt hold factually incorrect beliefs about many things. This is all far O/T, but we'd be better served linking to independent organizations rankings of media sophistication and reliability rather than using as evidence the notion that some people don't like certain media organizations. People often don't like facts either. They're still facts regardless.)

 

[ToutCa]

Again, those are YOUR opinions and have nothing to do with this murder or this thread.

I suggest we continue this conversation in private if you wish to, as it is O/T. OK?

You mischaracterized my observation. I said that peoples' personal opinions are not a measure of the factual accuracy of a news media organization. The only objective measure of media accuracy is its ability to relate facts and display critical thinking in doing so. So if we discuss this in private, let's try to locate studies and sources that measure different media organizations' ability to do so.

Back to the case!

 

[stmarysmead]

And I said that "factual accuracy" is often a judgement call based on ones own deeply held opinions. Thererfore the "facts" they relate match your own worldview...so you see that newspaper as accurate and fair. Often newspapers use ommision as a way of "shaping" a story, refusing to report anything that does not fit their world view. They cite experts whose views match their own, skew polls, and print sensational stories that set up a negative or postive response to fit tHEIR objective.

I have enjoyed your posts on this case...they are interesting and thought provoking. However I had a personal tutorial in my real life regarding the accuracy, journalistic "tricks" and fairnness of the NYT. When you are close to those LIVING the tragedy, know the facts, and you read lies and fabrications, you need no polls. Thankfully, the Times was eventually exposed.

This is why I am sensitive to the family in this case, especially the children.

 

[ToutCa]

And I said that "factual accuracy" is often a judgement call based on ones own deeply held opinions. Thererfore the "facts" they relate match your own. Often newspapers use ommision as a way of "shaping" a story, revusing to report anything that does not fit their world view.

I have enjoyed your posts on this case...they are interesting and thought provoking. However I had a personal tutorial in my real life regarding the accuracy, journalistic "tricks" and fairnness of the NYT. When you are close to those LIVING the tragedy, know the facts, and you read lies and fabrications, you need no polls. Thankfully, the Times was eventually exposed.

This is why I am sensitive to the family in this case, especially the children.

I've asked several times to continue this O/T conversation off the public thread. Please let's do so. Thank you for your compliment on my posts -- yours too have been very helpful and challenged me to re-think the case many times.

I'm sorry you had a bad experience with the NYT -- that must have been tough. No news media is the voice of the divine -- they all make mistakes. They all allow meta-narratives to distort stories at times. But I must respectfully disagree that "factual accuracy" is a matter of opinion only. Facts are facts. And judging different news media organ's overall track record relating facts over time, and displaying critical thinking on such facts is the only objective way to rate their efficacy.

So, off the thread, PLEASE, let's try to find some links for each other of truly independent non-partisan analysis of media to relate facts and display critical thinking based on facts (and not merely re-hash their biases).

 

[Yashim]

I can only find the article you linked from Vatan so far. Vatan has reported nonsense before on this case, but it sounds like you have heard this is solid information. He certainly sounds like a very good suspect, so I hope they have the physical evidence to nail him if he's the guy.

(Be prepared for a raft of theories that he only disturbed the body after the murder, etc.).

Yashim, you do get partial credit for advocating a random, but lose a lot of points for saying no Turks commit crimes (was that a joke?) and pushing the theory the killer was a weak teenage "druggie" thinner addict until last night when you caught wind of this new information!!!

But you have been the most consistent voice on here saying the perp was a random -- that is fair to say!

ToutCa. I am 41. And believe me. I've seen it all. Don't know much about the entire country, but I know Istanbul. For example, the moment I read the penis story posted by English, I knew that could have happened, even if she had told it to be fiction. (Unfortunately it was true.)

This definitely looked like a random thing from the very beginning. And not related to an espionage or a drug trafficking thing. Istanbul Police is very strong in fight against smuggling and organized crime. They would have had the intel to make speculations or even arrest SS before she was killed.

The druggies I was referring to are thinner addicts, they are stoned 99% of the time. They wouldn't do such a clean job of hiding the body and placing plank wood on top. When I thought about it, the druggies scenario no more made sense.

And some of the things you guys have said was so out of the Turkish perp's repertoire. Taking a rape victim's pants off to humiliate her? Come on!

And perhaps the perp wasn't even trying to make her unrecognizable. Was just trying to silence her screams as soon as possible.

When done garbage collecting, they retreat to spots like where SS was found. It makes sense.

To solve any crime, it helps to get into the mind of the perp. It's difficult for a foreigner, even for those who spent time in Turkey.

I recall a story by Octavio Paz: the Blue Bouquet. It has a political interpretation, that I won't go into. But it's about this Mexican who is trying to take an American's eyes off as a present for his wife. Because his wife likes blue eyes. When you don't have the feel of a culture, all you get is dead words, and they reveal very little.

Of course, I was kidding when I said Turks don't commit crimes. They do, like anyone else. And sometimes violently, too. If they didn't, how would I develop theories about this case.

 

[ThinkHard]

I think random stalker but only in the sense that the person was not known to her. If i was profiling, I would guess that the person spotted her (a pretty woman clearly alone) either when she arrived in Istanbul initially or when she returned from Adam, although I tend to lean towards the latter, since the swiftness and violence of the attack indicates continuous building of momentum (LE has said they believe Sarai died on the day she disappeared). Just my nonexpert, HO

I'm not saying your theory is impossible. Because certainly it is not. But there are a few things that I personally believe weaken your theory.

For one you keep saying she was always alone, we really don't know that. We saw one mall video of her. But there have been reports that she not only spent time with taylan but also other IG friends as well.
So your basing your theory on an assumption that none of us really know the accuracy of.

Secondly I don't think your taking into consideration the culture in which this crime took place. Violent crime against a stranger is incredibly uncommon in Turkey! Making the probability of this angle even less likely.

I feel like you are hypothesizing on this case based on a personal experience that happened to you in a very different country, rather then focusing on the totality of the information we have gathered.

It's a fine theory, and thank you for sharing, I just don't personally think it makes as strong of a case as you are personally convinced it does.

Personally I think it is far more likely Sarai knew her attacker. And I do not think this was attempted rape or an attempted sexual assault at all.

 

[ThinkHard]

No, he is not in custody. They are looking for him.

But I believe he might have headed back to his hometown, which may be in Eastern or Southeastern Turkey. But I'm sure they'll get him.

And hold on a sec. I wasn't wrong. I had the closest guess.

Question: not to sound skeptical. But how can le be so sure that this is their guy when they have not even tracked him yet to take his DNA? And furthermore le has been hush hush about so much, so why in earth would they announce that they were looking for this guy when they hadn't yet found him, when they already said they were annoyed at papers for scaring people off.

I call bluff on this until he's in custody and he's confirmed with DNA.

 

[Yellow]

:truce:

If true, virtually everyone on all the threads was wrong in their theories.

Let that be a lesson to all of us not to get over-confident in our brains.

Let's hope that he's the guy, that they have slam-dunk physical evidence, and that we can get justice for SS and her loved ones.

YASHIM OR ANYONE LOCAL, IS "Z" IN CUSTODY?

It is good if they finally caught someone

However many posters of this thread advocated a random attack. A few posters mentioned it last night and specified the reasons why they thought so. Unless someone was firmly behind Taylan doing it (which alot doubted) the main options were random attack or another IGer.

 

[ToutCa]

:truce:

It is good if they finally caught someone

However many posters of this thread advocated a random attack. A few posters mentioned it last night and specified the reasons why they thought so. Unless someone was firmly behind Taylan doing it (which alot doubted) the main options were random attack or another IGer.

Well, the last 2-3 days there have been a lot of people on the drug mule/smuggler theories, the local-guide theories, the evil-shopkeeper-turned-stalker theories, the husband-hired-hitman theories, even the husband-did-it-when-he-arrived-in-Istanbul theories!

Since many have commented that Steven Sierra and Amsterdam Ammer look alike, I've been waiting impatiently for the theory that claims they were the same person and somehow builds the murder out of that...

 

[english]

ToutCa. I am 41. And believe me. I've seen it all. Don't know much about the entire country, but I know Istanbul. For example, the moment I read the penis story posted by English, I knew that could have happened, even if she had told it to be fiction. (Unfortunately it was true.)

My original theory was an outlandish one about a drugs mule. Reading different theories and arguments for and against made a phrase come to mind "hiding in plain sight". As soon as I read that report from a seasoned lone traveller I realised I should stop over-complicating matters and focus instead on nothing but the facts - a first-time traveller exploring alone found herself in an isolated area.

 

[Yellow]

If you're one of those people who must have the last word, you can post a reply to this and I will not respond. Having the last word does not mean you "win" anything, but I'd like to get back to the breaking events of this case.

Facts are facts. Critical thinking intended to illuminate facts can be distinguished from agenda-driven mud-slinging. News media organs can be judged on how often they relate facts and how well their coverage displays and promotes critical thinking. It would be constructive to consider independent, non-partisan studies that have thoughtfully attempted to explore media's content and delivery. It is not constructive or true to assert and re-assert that media are simply all the same and that we are just totally incapable of making any distinctions of accuracy, use of evidence and quality of analysis between media organs.

I agree, back to the case, the only reason this was mentioned was because someone questioned Steven's interview. I am pretty sure NYT accurately transcribed his quotes. People can quibble whether they like the questions the NYT asks or how they arrange stories - that is debate for another forum - but I think in terms of the facts imparted in the article, I am pretty sure they were fact checked according to what all of the major media organizations do like Washungton Post, CNN, ABC, etc.

Unlike what comes out of tabloids, etc, we have no reason to believe NYT is just making up Steve saying that he stayed with friends of friends in Istanbul. We may have a hard time confirming facts in this case bc it is not clear where the Turkish press is getting their info. But if NYT publishes a fact - including a fact from Stevens own mouth- I think we can rely on it that he actually said it. This is not a situation of someone saying Jennifer anistan is pregnant.

If the interview was not transcribed right and Steven did not say that, he would be saying that fact was wrong. Nor do I know why the NYT would simply make up that he said that bc it would seem to advance no agenda.

In this case, NYTimes is almost the best we got bc the only other US press I have seen covering it are Daily news and post and Daily Mail and much of what they say is just quoting Turkish press. Daily news has been better than Post though as they have their own reporter in Istanbul.

And I do not want to get into a debate on the duke rape case and how NYT reported it or how it was emphasized - but the whole media did that, every cable channel, etc. There were certain facts in that case that are just facts too and it is fair for the media to report facts about a well publicized case.

 

[ToutCa]

I think if any media uses a direct quote from a named source, we can rely on it to a certain degree. Hoping of course, that they have used the ENTIRE quote. In regard to the tabloids, they are looking fir sensationalism, but some have good sources. But as long as they are unnamed sources, we should be sceptical.

Why not have a general criteria across the board for what we ascertain as accurate. I think NAMED sources is one key. If someone does not want to put their name to their own words, why should we find them credible.

That I can definitely agree with. Common ground...olive branch???!!!

 

[SandyP]

Well, the last 2-3 days there have been a lot of people on the drug mule/smuggler theories, the local-guide theories, the evil-shopkeeper-turned-stalker theories, the husband-hired-hitman theories, even the husband-did-it-when-he-arrived-in-Istanbul theories!

Since many have commented that Steven Sierra and Amsterdam Ammer look alike, I've been waiting impatiently for the theory that claims they were the same person and somehow builds the murder out of that...

I was almost ready to go there but then couldn't figure how it all worked out! And now that Steven is back in NY and Ammer still in Amsterdam whole thing falls apart. But I may save it for my screenplay. Unless cloning involved...

 

[necco]

I'm sorry to interrupt your fascinating argument about the bias of media, but there's kind of a major development in the case we've been sleuthing.

So, a garbage man in Turkey is not a municipal employee, but someone who collects recyclables?

I wonder why the iPad and phone were taken, but not the jewelry.

 

[stmarysmead]

That I can definitely agree with. Common ground...olive branch???!!!

Yes, olive branch and a friendly handshake.

 

[ToutCa]

I'm sorry to interrupt your fascinating argument about the bias of media, but there's kind of a major development in the case we've been sleuthing.

So, a garbage man in Turkey is not a municipal employee, but someone who collects recyclables?

I wonder why the iPad and phone were taken, but not the jewelry.

Necco, is that sarcasm you are using?? You, the anti-sarcastic poster????

If it does turn out to be the homeless garbage rummager, I'd probably go back to the costume jewelry theory that it didn't seem like he'd get any money for them.

Or...maybe he stole the electronics. Done. Then initiated a rape. She resisted, there was a violent fight and he killed her. At that point he was covered with mud and blood from the fight, a wreck, panicked and just too busy hiding the body and running away to worry about jewelry. Just a theory...

 

[Yellow]

The Times article was an actual interview with Steven, not just them throwing out questions. I believe it was friends of friends of the brother that he says he stayed with. They were not his actual friends. We do not know where these friends came from, maybe they were arranged by the church. If the interview was quoted wrong, I am sure Steven or the brother would have corrected the false information or the false transcription.

 

[Herat]

So, a garbage man in Turkey is not a municipal employee, but someone who collects recyclables?

In the US vernacular a "garbage man" would be a regular employee of a munincipality or company that collects household or other garbage from bins on a regular schedule. The kind that wake you at 5am with the sound of mechanical equipment as they clang the metal garbage cans down the street, one after another. In the US, these people are paid pretty well and would have a home, family, and lots of information on file with the employer.

What Yashim has described is to me a homeless person who scrounges public garbage containers for recyclables to sell. And usuallly for alcohol or other drugs to abuse. Not employed, not a regular workaday person, but someone who people often see in the area. Just as Yashim describes, sticks to one geographic area (his territory) to scrounge recyclables and retreats into a nearby deserted area to sleep, etc.

That might prove to be a difficult person to find.

Still doesn't explain the missing shoes, jacket, and the presence of jewelry to me.

 

[michellemarls]

Another article on the story of the street paper collecter Yashim first brought to light.

Police hunt for homeless man suspected of killing New York mother on solo trip to Turkey

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rk-mother-solo-trip-Turkey.html#ixzz2Kmy1cLd1
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