GUILTY Turkey - Sarai Sierra, 33, NY woman murdered, Istanbul, 21 Jan 2013 - #5

[SANDOVAL]

Sorry - new here! - I was replying to someone's post that said - "The 9 going on 32, I think referred to her being so trusting and naive, which is played out by her many choices on this trip."

The "9 going on 32" was actually how one of her pastors described her when she was a young girl:

"But the passion and curiosity and spirituality and adventuresome spark that propelled her had been manifest since she was a little girl.

While other youngsters played, little Sarai had joined the adults in handing out sandwiches and ladling soup at the food for the poor program at Christian Pentecostal Church.

“A young girl that always had a compassionate heart,” says another pastor, Martin Tursi. “Nine years old going on 29 years old.”
the article is here:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...-in-istanbul-was-an-artist-in-the-making.html

Thankyou. That was the quote i was looking for!

 

[SANDOVAL]

Hi! It wasn't so much the 9 going on whatever age(!) - even I said 32!
Please don't think I was "nit-picking" at 29 vs. 32.
I posted the article because it seemed that some people thought that description referred to her as a grown woman - naive, child-like..........but actually it sounds like she was an "old soul" at 9 - showing compassion while other kids were playing.

Exactly: why I thought instead of looking askance at Z or whoever, she might have been feeling compassion, and must have been horrified when the perp. turned out so violent.

 

[Rochelle]

Exactly: why I thought instead of looking askance at Z or whoever, she might have been feeling compassion, and must have been horrified when the perp. turned out so violent.

I'm thinking the same, too. Especially when I read this, from the same article - gives a perspective on how she may have viewed Z and others:

"Tursi also noted early on that Sarai seemed to delight both in the diversity of the people who came through the church and in what they had in common.

“She really enjoyed experiencing different people and different cultures,” Tursi says. “We live in a world where we label people and we tag people. Sarai was one of those girls who just saw the value of people and did not necessarily put people in a box.”

 

[ozma]

Exactly: why I thought instead of looking askance at Z or whoever, she might have been feeling compassion, and must have been horrified when the perp. turned out so violent.

Yes, thank you Rochelle! I was also trying to remember where I had read this information about Sarai's childhood experiences, and couldn't. Sandoval, I was thinking the same as what you stated here, when it was being discussed the other day whether Sarai might have been convinced by Ziya and/or others to cross the street. I think it's likely that she would have crossed on her own to take photos. When one or more homeless men suddenly appeared, she must surely have been at least a little afraid, as a small, lone woman made even more alone by the language barrier. But out of instinctive politeness or even compassion arising from the days when the little girl handed out sandwiches to people in need, she may have tried to mask this fear and stay there and talk to them, even though deep down she must have wanted to run away as fast as she could. It hurts to even think about it.

 

[ozma]

I have a question. Well, a lot of questions, but this is uppermost:

Earlier in this thread, blackydress brought to our attention reports in the Turkish-language media that LE said the crime was committed between 3 p.m. and 6 p.m. on the 21st. How would they have arrived at this conclusion? I don’t really know anything about forensic methods (never even watched CSI!), but forensic medicine wouldn’t be able to narrow the time down to within a few hours given the 12 days that had passed, would it? So that means the police must have other kinds of evidence. SS calling or texting someone? Surveillance video that hasn’t been acknowledged? (I remember someone asked the other day whether it would be normal for LE to say that a picture was the last one known when it really wasn’t.) A reliable witness sighting?

[As an aside, I would think this time frame would also be inconsistent with the possibility of Sarai going on a connecting flight scheduled for that evening, since even 2 p.m. would be cutting it pretty close for a 6 p.m. departure (if I remember, someone investigated and found that there were a couple of flights around this time).]

The cutoff time (for the crime) is especially puzzling (to me, anyway). How could they have any idea? Is it just because it would be dark by then?

As a newcomer, I apologize if (here or in any future posts) I’m going over things that have already been resolved. I stumbled across the WS site pretty late, after being frustrated by the lack/poor quality of coverage in MSM. (Like several other posters here, I was drawn to the case by the experience of having lived in Turkey [although not in Istanbul] for a time.) I read all the threads from the beginning (which took nearly all my spare time for about a week!), but it was a lot to take in all at one time.

 

[SANDOVAL]

I have a question. Well, a lot of questions, but this is uppermost:

Earlier in this thread, blackydress brought to our attention reports in the Turkish-language media that LE said the crime was committed between 3 p.m. and 6 p.m. on the 21st. How would they have arrived at this conclusion? I don’t really know anything about forensic methods (never even watched CSI!), but forensic medicine wouldn’t be able to narrow the time down to within a few hours given the 12 days that had passed, would it? So that means the police must have other kinds of evidence. SS calling or texting someone? Surveillance video that hasn’t been acknowledged? (I remember someone asked the other day whether it would be normal for LE to say that a picture was the last one known when it really wasn’t.) A reliable witness sighting?

[As an aside, I would think this time frame would also be inconsistent with the possibility of Sarai going on a connecting flight scheduled for that evening, since even 2 p.m. would be cutting it pretty close for a 6 p.m. departure (if I remember, someone investigated and found that there were a couple of flights around this time).]

The cutoff time (for the crime) is especially puzzling (to me, anyway). How could they have any idea? Is it just because it would be dark by then?

As a newcomer, I apologize if (here or in any future posts) I’m going over things that have already been resolved. I stumbled across the WS site pretty late, after being frustrated by the lack/poor quality of coverage in MSM. (Like several other posters here, I was drawn to the case by the experience of having lived in Turkey [although not in Istanbul] for a time.) I read all the threads from the beginning (which took nearly all my spare time for about a week!), but it was a lot to take in all at one time.

There seems to be a lack of precise knowledge regarding actual death time. ....and also persisting confusion regarding the scheduled departure for NY time: some say 21st.....but there is the time difference with Turkey, so i can't help much.
Welcome.

 

[SophieRose]

I have a question. Well, a lot of questions, but this is uppermost:

Earlier in this thread, blackydress brought to our attention reports in the Turkish-language media that LE said the crime was committed between 3 p.m. and 6 p.m. on the 21st. How would they have arrived at this conclusion? I don’t really know anything about forensic methods (never even watched CSI!), but forensic medicine wouldn’t be able to narrow the time down to within a few hours given the 12 days that had passed, would it? So that means the police must have other kinds of evidence. SS calling or texting someone? Surveillance video that hasn’t been acknowledged? (I remember someone asked the other day whether it would be normal for LE to say that a picture was the last one known when it really wasn’t.) A reliable witness sighting?

[As an aside, I would think this time frame would also be inconsistent with the possibility of Sarai going on a connecting flight scheduled for that evening, since even 2 p.m. would be cutting it pretty close for a 6 p.m. departure (if I remember, someone investigated and found that there were a couple of flights around this time).]

The cutoff time (for the crime) is especially puzzling (to me, anyway). How could they have any idea? Is it just because it would be dark by then?

As a newcomer, I apologize if (here or in any future posts) I’m going over things that have already been resolved. I stumbled across the WS site pretty late, after being frustrated by the lack/poor quality of coverage in MSM. (Like several other posters here, I was drawn to the case by the experience of having lived in Turkey [although not in Istanbul] for a time.) I read all the threads from the beginning (which took nearly all my spare time for about a week!), but it was a lot to take in all at one time.

3:00 pm may have been the last time a witness saw Sarai. If they are sure that Z is the perp, maybe 6:00 pm is a witness account of his whereabouts, or maybe they have him on surveillance video. Other than that I have no idea where they would come up with such a tight timeline for her death after finding her body 12 days later.

 

[Herat]

3:00 pm may have been the last time a witness saw Sarai. If they are sure that Z is the perp, maybe 6:00 pm is a witness account of his whereabouts, or maybe they have him on surveillance video. Other than that I have no idea where they would come up with such a tight timeline for her death after finding her body 12 days later.

Sunset on Jan 21, 2012 IST was 5:09pm. So by 18:00 it would be getting dark. I have to assume they determined the 18:00 time as a sighting of Z, although it would have to be a pretty well-lit place. I wonder what happened to his bloody clothes. I wonder if he has many spare clothes. Maybe he was going to the used clothing market to get clothes for himself.

He might have the money in her pockets and might not have needed to sell her jacket. (As the jacket selling has been discredited).

 

[SANDOVAL]

Sunset on Jan 21, 2012 IST was 5:09pm. So by 18:00 it would be getting dark. I have to assume they determined the 18:00 time as a sighting of Z, although it would have to be a pretty well-lit place. I wonder what happened to his bloody clothes. I wonder if he has many spare clothes. Maybe he was going to the used clothing market to get clothes for himself.

He might have the money in her pockets and might not have needed to sell her jacket. (As the jacket selling has been discredited).

Discredited by whom? Please do you have a link?

 

[writer411]

Principal US LE agency having jurisdiction over this incident would be FBI, that is correct. However, FBI currently doesn't have any assets in Syria, as intelligence gathering and paramilitary operations are the responsibility of CIA. While FBI is definitely involved in some intelligence matters, these are strictly counter-intelligence cases and mostly relevant FBI activity takes places in CONUS.

No disrespect, but unless you yourself are FBI or CIA posting operations details on a chat board, how in the world would you know what assets FBI or CIA have in Syria?

 

[zarra30]

:seeya:

No disrespect, but unless you yourself are FBI or CIA posting operations details on a chat board, how in the world would you know what assets FBI or CIA have in Syria?

It's not relevant what Alp or any of us 'do', in terms of thinking of ideas or scenarios regarding an American killed in Turkey, and I fail to see why assets should be important to this case. I think for the most part we are not supposed to give personal information about ourselves out. Alp has been one of the most helpful posters on this board, in terms of translating and explaining how things work in Istanbul Turkey, bits of history and humor, and your post to him sounds a little challenging and invasive, even though you probably didn't mean it to.
And the girls think he's hot, so be friendly. LOL

 

[ozma]

Discredited by whom? Please do you have a link?

I don’t remember if it appeared in an English-language source or not, but there was an article appearing in a number of Turkish-language news outlets to the effect that during LE’s review of surveillance camera recordings, they found that a business’s security camera had filmed Ziya T. walking with a jacket in his hand. But upon a thorough examination (of the pictures, apparently), it was determined that this was not the jacket Sarai was seen wearing on the day she was killed. Here is a link to one of these articles, dated February 20/21:
http://www.haber7.com/guncel/haber/992741-zanli-ziya-t-ile-ilgili-yeni-goruntuler
I’m not at all sure how reliable these sources are. But the sources running the opposite story (that the jacket was Sarai’s and Ziya was seen selling it) might well not be any better.

 

[Fantazteko]

I have a question. Well, a lot of questions, but this is uppermost:

Earlier in this thread, blackydress brought to our attention reports in the Turkish-language media that LE said the crime was committed between 3 p.m. and 6 p.m. on the 21st. How would they have arrived at this conclusion? I don’t really know anything about forensic methods (never even watched CSI!), but forensic medicine wouldn’t be able to narrow the time down to within a few hours given the 12 days that had passed, would it? So that means the police must have other kinds of evidence. SS calling or texting someone? Surveillance video that hasn’t been acknowledged? (I remember someone asked the other day whether it would be normal for LE to say that a picture was the last one known when it really wasn’t.) A reliable witness sighting?

[As an aside, I would think this time frame would also be inconsistent with the possibility of Sarai going on a connecting flight scheduled for that evening, since even 2 p.m. would be cutting it pretty close for a 6 p.m. departure (if I remember, someone investigated and found that there were a couple of flights around this time).]

The cutoff time (for the crime) is especially puzzling (to me, anyway). How could they have any idea? Is it just because it would be dark by then?

As a newcomer, I apologize if (here or in any future posts) I’m going over things that have already been resolved. I stumbled across the WS site pretty late, after being frustrated by the lack/poor quality of coverage in MSM. (Like several other posters here, I was drawn to the case by the experience of having lived in Turkey [although not in Istanbul] for a time.) I read all the threads from the beginning (which took nearly all my spare time for about a week!), but it was a lot to take in all at one time.

forensic entomology would help yield many answers for determining time of death.

The life cycle and behavior of most insects is well-known and predictable.

These entomologists get their clues from everything those insects do; from reproduction, age, digestion, and death.

Since her body was found outdoors, they most likely used the environment. She was allegedly dragged from the spot where she was killed, so they have probably examined blood and how long insects had interacted with it and her body.

 

[alpmighty]

No disrespect, but unless you yourself are FBI or CIA posting operations details on a chat board, how in the world would you know what assets FBI or CIA have in Syria?

No disrespect taken.

Naturally, receiving an answer to your question will be paradoxical on your part. You cannot expect anybody who is actively involved with said agencies in an overseas capacity to affirm any such allegiance publicly. That would most likely constitute several breaches of operational security regulations. I'm responding to your inquiry, knowing very well that my response would be taken with a grain of salt. Still, there are certain other variables related with my involvement on this discussion board that simply would make any such personal association with those agencies implausible. I hope you can consider those for yourself.

Irregardless, I will respond to your question by stating that I'm not in anyway involved with any federal agency or the military of the United States in a personal capacity.

My intuition is based on knowledge of executive orders and the federal law of the United States, which regulates powers of those mentioned federal agencies, all of which I can cite upon request. Additionally, I happen to be close to certain local circles, which usually deal with US agency or military operations in the areas of responsibility that is relevant to Ziya's predicted course, to consider myself knowledgeable enough of such matters, which ultimately bestows precision unto my intuition.

Your curiosity is very befitting to the nature of this discussion board, and as such, I appreciate it and felt that it would be appropriate to provide an adequate reply to your line of inquiry.

Thank you very much.

 

[Blackydress]

There seems to be a lack of precise knowledge regarding actual death time. ....and also persisting confusion regarding the scheduled departure for NY time: some say 21st.....but there is the time difference with Turkey, so i can't help much.
Welcome.

I have a question. Well, a lot of questions, but this is uppermost:

Earlier in this thread, blackydress brought to our attention reports in the Turkish-language media that LE said the crime was committed between 3 p.m. and 6 p.m. on the 21st. How would they have arrived at this conclusion? I don’t really know anything about forensic methods (never even watched CSI!), but forensic medicine wouldn’t be able to narrow the time down to within a few hours given the 12 days that had passed, would it? So that means the police must have other kinds of evidence. SS calling or texting someone? Surveillance video that hasn’t been acknowledged? (I remember someone asked the other day whether it would be normal for LE to say that a picture was the last one known when it really wasn’t.) A reliable witness sighting?

[As an aside, I would think this time frame would also be inconsistent with the possibility of Sarai going on a connecting flight scheduled for that evening, since even 2 p.m. would be cutting it pretty close for a 6 p.m. departure (if I remember, someone investigated and found that there were a couple of flights around this time).]

The cutoff time (for the crime) is especially puzzling (to me, anyway). How could they have any idea? Is it just because it would be dark by then?

As a newcomer, I apologize if (here or in any future posts) I’m going over things that have already been resolved. I stumbled across the WS site pretty late, after being frustrated by the lack/poor quality of coverage in MSM. (Like several other posters here, I was drawn to the case by the experience of having lived in Turkey [although not in Istanbul] for a time.) I read all the threads from the beginning (which took nearly all my spare time for about a week!), but it was a lot to take in all at one time.

Who knows why they say what they say. LE only tells 5% of what they know we read. Official autopsy report will be revealed in 2 months or so. In the meantime, I would not believe in newspaper articles. Most of them are sensationalist. Yesterday reporters in Twitter were complaining that they were told SS had all her clothes on and now they found out it is not so.
First they said Z. sold SS's jacket now they say no. Friends who saw him in Karabuk said he had no scratches on his face.

I personally do not think Z. did this, or maybe there were other homeless people involved. It is always easy to frame a homeless nobody.

 

[Blackydress]

I don’t remember if it appeared in an English-language source or not, but there was an article appearing in a number of Turkish-language news outlets to the effect that during LE’s review of surveillance camera recordings, they found that a business’s security camera had filmed Ziya T. walking with a jacket in his hand. But upon a thorough examination (of the pictures, apparently), it was determined that this was not the jacket Sarai was seen wearing on the day she was killed. Here is a link to one of these articles, dated February 20/21:
http://www.haber7.com/guncel/haber/992741-zanli-ziya-t-ile-ilgili-yeni-goruntuler
I’m not at all sure how reliable these sources are. But the sources running the opposite story (that the jacket was Sarai’s and Ziya was seen selling it) might well not be any better.

Again this was refuted. It was not SS's jacket after all.

 

[Blackydress]

I remember reading early on, probably when she was reported missing, but her body had not yet been discovered, that she was thought to have been near an area that was notorious for vagrants, druggies, and huffers. In one of the videos of the intact walls, taken much farther down by an English guy at least a year before SS ever visited, he mentions being warned about not going anywhere into the walls.

How was it that she would have not heard these warnings?

Thanks you for this question. And her friend who was supposed to make the trip with her, said "SS reaaally researched the city, where to go where not to go, where to stay etc."

 

[Blackydress]

forensic entomology would help yield many answers for determining time of death.

The life cycle and behavior of most insects is well-known and predictable.

These entomologists get their clues from everything those insects do; from reproduction, age, digestion, and death.

Since her body was found outdoors, they most likely used the environment. She was allegedly dragged from the spot where she was killed, so they have probably examined blood and how long insects had interacted with it and her body.

Thanks you for this. And what happened to this woman who was a witness, came forward she saw a man taking out a body, a woman's hand? LE refuted this too. Very confusing indeed.

 

[ThinkHard]

Thanks you for this question. And her friend who was supposed to make the trip with her, said "SS reaaally researched the city, where to go where not to go, where to stay etc."

Yes her friend did say this but on her own IG account she said "I am the most uninformed tourist here" so I do have doubts on just how much research she did, and how informed she actually was.

 

[alpmighty]

Thanks you for this question. And her friend who was supposed to make the trip with her, said "SS reaaally researched the city, where to go where not to go, where to stay etc."

But can we really apprehend how comprehensive SS research of Istanbul was from that simple statement?

Not everything is on the Internet.

Assuming SS was well knowledgeable about Istanbul would simply lead us wrong.