TX - Cameron Redus, 23, UIW student, fatally shot by campus PD officer, 6 Dec 2013

[Zuri]

Echoing the thoughts of another poster:
Before a driver complies w. LE requests or orders, how many times should LE have to tell him ---
---to put hands behind his back? more than 14 times?
---he's under arrest? more than 3 times?
---to stop resisting? more than 56 times?
---all the above? more than this combined count from the audio recording?

IMO some would agree above driver is not model citizen,
but also agree driver's inaction to that point did not seem - from recording- to merit LE use of force.

But what about when the driver wrested LE baton away from officer?
And struck him multiple times with it?

IMO, a driver grabbing LE's baton could also be anticipated by a reasonable person (or reasonable LEO)
to be capable of grabbing and likely to grab LE's service weapon.

Not saying this LEO gets officer of the year award, but dang....
As LambChop said, some ppl should not be in LE.

"Carter was wearing a body microphone, and police have reviewed an audio recordingof what happened next.
"The recording captured Carter asking Redus to stop and put his hands on the truck, Pruitt said. Redus did so, but began to struggle when Carter started to handcuff him, Pruitt said.
During the six-minute confrontation, Carter told Redus 14 times to put his hands behind his back and told him three times that he was under arrest, Pruitt said. Carter told Redus to stop resisting 56 times, Pruitt said.
“There was a lot of communication,” he said.
At some point, Carter took out his collapsible baton to protect himself, Pruitt said.
Although there was “a very stark difference” between Carter’s size and the smaller student, Redus managed to take the baton away, pin the officer against a wall and hit him several times on the head and arm with the baton, Pruitt said. The rain and rocky landscaping might have made it hard for the officer to keep his footing, Pruitt said." BBM UBM
http://blog.mysanantonio.com/police...nt-cameron-redus-by-campus-police/#18821101=0

Something is just not adding up for me with this account of the shooting by the police. If Carter did say all those things as many times as it is being reported, that would take at least 6 minutes. When did he have time to be beaten and regain enough control to shoot Redus? It just seems odd. JMV

 

[LambChop]

It may be true one apparent participant in the evening's earlier activities apparently has said bar-hopping was involved, and that this was published in MSM. I'd like first to hear autopsy details to judge the extent of the young man's drinking that evening, if any. I'd not be shocked at all if the dead IW student had drinks. As I recall, there were several nightspots on that portion of Broadway in S.A., and certainly Broadway would be the chosen route to take back from the RiverWalk bars and clubs to IW and the late Mr. Redus's apartment in Alamo Heights. But none of this carries much weight - only an objective instrument like an autopsy can truly say. We'll know for sure I think soon though. This is a big case in S.A. as Redus's family is proactive and also the section of town in which the incident occurred itself carries much weight.

It really does not matter whether he was drunk or not. The fact is he resisted arrest. Had he not been drinking and was swerving and hit the curb because he dropped his cell phone or something similar there would have been no reason for him to resist arrest. His test would have been clear and they would have let him go with just a ticket. The officer was within his rights to arrest him if he felt he was a danger to the public and it appears he was.

Regardless, the family is suffering and the more they push the more information will be released and they may not like what they hear. It is too bad this happened but an officer has the law on his side so if you physically resist you are breaking the law. Police officers are suppose to protect so getting into a fight with one is not a good idea. jmo

 

[jjenny]

Something is just not adding up for me with this account of the shooting by the police. If Carter did say all those things as many times as it is being reported, that would take at least 6 minutes. When did he have time to be beaten and regain enough control to shoot Redus? It just seems odd. JMV

All of this was taped on his microphone. So if they are counting how many times he said what, they are doing it froma a recording.
He could be talking and be beaten up at the same time.

 

[LambChop]

Just a reminder of the rules:

Law Enforcement:

Members of Law Enforcement regularly read at WS. Generally they contact WS Admins when they register, but there is no requirement that they do so. Unless they ask us to, we do not publicly identify them, but all posters should be aware that public comments about illegal activity could bring them attention they may not want. WS receives subpoenas on a regular basis from various agencies. WS will comply with all valid subpoenas received.

Let's try to keep rumors out of our discussions. This is just a reminder because as you know sometimes the discussions get heated. So far we're good.

 

[Paragirl]

A little O/T but kudos to the Hamilton police officers involved in this arrest! Of course they didn't have to try to wrest their batons away from the suspect, or tell her 56 times to stop resisting

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/12/12/i-apologize-for-you-having-to-see-that-hamilton-police-praised-after-polite-arrest-of-flailing-suspect-caught-on-video/

 

[Paragirl]

A little O/T but kudos to the Hamilton police officers involved in this arrest! Of course they didn't have to try to wrest their batons away from the suspect, or tell her 56 times to stop resisting

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/12/12/i-apologize-for-you-having-to-see-that-hamilton-police-praised-after-polite-arrest-of-flailing-suspect-caught-on-video/

Here's the link to the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f23CPcTdY2M

 

[LambChop]

A little O/T but kudos to the Hamilton police officers involved in this arrest! Of course they didn't have to try to wrest their batons away from the suspect, or tell her 56 times to stop resisting

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/12/12/i-apologize-for-you-having-to-see-that-hamilton-police-praised-after-polite-arrest-of-flailing-suspect-caught-on-video/

It's possible Officer Carter told the student 56 times to stop resisting because he was waiting for backup which he suspected would be there any second to help him subdue the driver. jmo

 

[Reader]

Something is just not adding up for me with this account of the shooting by the police. If Carter did say all those things as many times as it is being reported, that would take at least 6 minutes. When did he have time to be beaten and regain enough control to shoot Redus? It just seems odd. JMV

Agree, so much is going on that 6 min. just seems too short for all of that to happen. I understand they have the tape but still...I probably couldn't say "stop resisting' 56 times alone in 6 min.

From the press conference link above I noticed this stated by the chief:

Drawing his .40-caliber semiautomatic pistol, Carter then warned Redus four times to stop or he would shoot, Pruitt said. Then, Carter told police, Redus charged him with his arm raised as if to hit him.

Carter fired his gun six times, hitting Redus five times at close range — in the chest, neck, eye, arm and thigh — officials said.

The part in bold is apparently the last action Cameron took before he was shot. It says, 'as if to hit him', not as if to take his gun. As I mentioned before, if this was the case why did the officer, being much larger and not drunk, either use his hands or his baton to strike out and protect himself and subdue him. With all the training he had, which seems rather excessive compared to the few little jobs he had for short times, he should have known how to do that. It seems to me that once he had his gun out he was going to use it no matter what Cameron did.

And another note, we only have that info from Carter; there is audio but no video to show what he and Cameron were doing in those last moments. I still think the officer overreacted and mishandled this entire situation and the death was unnecessary.

I do realize that this seems to be already decided as a 'good kill' per other posts here about how the case is being handled. This is just my own opinion.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

Agree, so much is going on that 6 min. just seems too short for all of that to happen. I understand they have the tape but still...I probably couldn't say "stop resisting' 56 times alone in 6 min.

From the press conference link above I noticed this stated by the chief:



The part in bold is apparently the last action Cameron took before he was shot. It says, 'as if to hit him', not as if to take his gun. As I mentioned before, if this was the case why did the officer, being much larger and not drunk, either use his hands or his baton to strike out and protect himself and subdue him. With all the training he had, which seems rather excessive compared to the few little jobs he had for short times, he should have known how to do that. It seems to me that once he had his gun out he was going to use it no matter what Cameron did.

And another note, we only have that info from Carter; there is audio but no video to show what he and Cameron were doing in those last moments. I still think the officer overreacted and mishandled this entire situation and the death was unnecessary.

I do realize that this seems to be already decided as a 'good kill' per other posts here about how the case is being handled. This is just my own opinion.

BBM: Size is no guarantee that another person won't be able to overpower you. Cameron was resisting arrest and violent. This officer is not required to take the risk of jeopardizing his own life in a situation like that. As a officer you don't let it get to the point where the perp could potentially take your weapon. The officer has every right to use deadly force if he fears for his own safety. Cameron had already taken his baton and attacked him with it.

Why would anyone "not think" that if they resisted or committed a battery against a police officer they wouldn't get shot? Officers have every right to go home safely to their families at the end of the day.

 

[colette]

Maybe he raised his arms, as in "hands up". I don't know, I just don't understand shooting so many times at close range. I hope we hear the truth in what really happened, so far I'm skeptical.

 

[LambChop]

Maybe he raised his arms, as in "hands up". I don't know, I just don't understand shooting so many times at close range. I hope we hear the truth in what really happened, so far I'm skeptical.

I would think the reason for shooting so many times at close range was the officer feared Redus was trying to get his gun. Because the officer had already lost his baton to Redus I would think it would be natural to assume that if someone were advancing towards you while you were holding a gun that their intention was to grab the gun out of your hand and shoot you with it. If Redus were rapidly advancing, which it appears he was, that is why those wounds are all over the place. I think the officer tried to stop him first before shooting him in the chest.

This clearly was not an easy decision by this officer. As a society we seem to be suggesting that we need to challenge LE whenever we feel they are doing something wrong. But the place to object is not at the time of your arrest. By law you are suppose to cooperate with any LE officer, then take your argument to a court of law. Redus was 100% wrong in his behavior after he was approached by this officer. Redus' actions caused his own death. Sad as it is.

The majority of LE do their jobs every day without complaints from private citizens. A few bad officers make it very difficult for other officers who find themselves in an incident such as this and are forced to defend themselves. Right away people assume he could have handled this differently, been a little less aggressive. How many times does a person have to be told you are under arrest, you're resisting arrest, put your hands behind your back? This officer was doing the right thing in a way that was safe for everyone. Once his baton was grabbed and used on him he only had one resource available to him without help and that was his gun. Just pulling out the gun should have stopped Redus. It did not and only aggravated CR more. Apparently Carter tried to stop Redus by shooting him in the leg, the neck, the eye and the chest as Redus advanced on him. This is what I am getting from the report so far. Nothing else. The audio, the injuries to the officer, the wounds on the student, witness accounts all seem to add up to what the officer is reporting. Did the officer try to stop Redus by shooting him in the leg? Apparently he did. Not sure what more the public would expect this officer to do other than give up his life for a traffic stop. jmo

 

[oh_gal]

BBM

This is the biggest issue I have with this entire story, none of the details disclosed so far indicate that the officer was responding to a DEADLY FORCE. Again, I would hope that an officer who is described as having extensive experience and training, would not consider a college student wielding the officer's own baton, who was then disarmed by the same officer, to be a deadly force. I would hope the officer would be a little more hearty than that.

MOO

The officer didn't know how he would react (the college student) -- some people are mean drunks, some are happy. The fact that he took his baton, though, was an aggressive move. The officer also had no idea what other weapons this guy could have stuffed down his pants, or in his boot, or coat pocket. Sadly, it's the age we live in, where people buy guns as easily as they buy toilet paper. And oftentimes, those guns are more powerful than what local LE is carrying. If the officer felt his life was in danger, how can that be faulted? None of us were there.

I guess a good lesson to be learned from this is: do what the officer tells you, and don't disarm him. If you fail to follow those instructions, you're on your own, buddy. Take whatever consequences you get. I come from a family of LE, so this guy doesn't get any sympathy from me. Many are so quick to bash LE...until they need a police officer's help. YOU try going out there, and putting your life on the line to protect the public, then. THEN you can cast your stones. It's so easy to be judgmental when we're sitting in front of our computers, safe and sound, isn't it?

Lastly, Paragirl, none of the above was meant as a personal attack on you, just using your post as a jumping off point.

 

[oh_gal]

I would think the reason for shooting so many times at close range was the officer feared Redus was trying to get his gun. Because the officer had already lost his baton to Redus I would think it would be natural to assume that if someone were advancing towards you while you were holding a gun that their intention was to grab the gun out of your hand and shoot you with it. If Redus were rapidly advancing, which it appears he was, that is why those wounds are all over the place. I think the officer tried to stop him first before shooting him in the chest.

This clearly was not an easy decision by this officer. As a society we seem to be suggesting that we need to challenge LE whenever we feel they are doing something wrong. But the place to object is not at the time of your arrest. By law you are suppose to cooperate with any LE officer, then take your argument to a court of law. Redus was 100% wrong in his behavior after he was approached by this officer. Redus' actions caused his own death. Sad as it is.

The majority of LE do their jobs every day without complaints from private citizens. A few bad officers make it very difficult for other officers who find themselves in an incident such as this and are forced to defend themselves. Right away people assume he could have handled this differently, been a little less aggressive. How many times does a person have to be told you are under arrest, you're resisting arrest, put your hands behind your back? This officer was doing the right thing in a way that was safe for everyone. Once his baton was grabbed and used on him he only had one resource available to him without help and that was his gun. Just pulling out the gun should have stopped Redus. It did not and only aggravated CR more. Apparently Carter tried to stop Redus by shooting him in the leg, the neck, the eye and the chest as Redus advanced on him. This is what I am getting from the report so far. Nothing else. The audio, the injuries to the officer, the wounds on the student, witness accounts all seem to add up to what the officer is reporting. Did the officer try to stop Redus by shooting him in the leg? Apparently he did. Not sure what more the public would expect this officer to do other than give up his life for a traffic stop. jmo

(bbm)
That's it in a nutshell.

 

[LambChop]

(bbm)
That's it in a nutshell.

My husband was a detective with a police department located in a city in Connecticut. He always told me he may stand trial for shooting someone but it was he who was going home at night to his family.

He use to joke that the guns they were issued would not kill anyone. An officer who was my husband's partner when he was on patrol before making detective was in a scuffle with someone he was trying to arrest. The officer was alone and the man was able to get the officer's gun during the struggle. That man shot the officer in the face with the officer's gun. The storeowner was able to call 911 but it all happened so fast that the man was able to get away before police backup could arrive. While the officer survived he needed extensive surgery to restore his lower face and jaw and was never able to return to his job.

This is why officers are told if they feel someone is going to take their service revolver they need to use their weapon to stop them.

I really think this situation got out of hand because no officers responded to back him up due to a mix up and he was left alone to handle the situation. It normally takes two officers or more to try and restrain someone who is violent. One officer alone is at a tremendous risk of injury. jmo

 

[BeginnersLuck]

My husband was a detective with a police department located in a city in Connecticut. He always told me he may stand trial for shooting someone but it was he who was going home at night to his family.

He use to joke that the guns they were issued would not kill anyone. An officer who was my husband's partner when he was on patrol before making detective was in a scuffle with someone he was trying to arrest. The officer was alone and the man was able to get the officer's gun during the struggle. That man shot the officer in the face with the officer's gun. The storeowner was able to call 911 but it all happened so fast that the man was able to get away before police backup could arrive. While the officer survived he needed extensive surgery to restore his lower face and jaw and was never able to return to his job.

This is why officers are told if they feel someone is going to take their service revolver they need to use their weapon to stop them.

I really think this situation got out of hand because no officers responded to back him up due to a mix up and he was left alone to handle the situation. It normally takes two officers or more to try and restrain someone who is violent. One officer alone is at a tremendous risk of injury. jmo

BBM: I just want to respond on this, because there are times when a officer is possibly going to be in this position and backup will not get there in time. Every time a person resists arrest a officer has to make a quick decision and use best judgement for the safety of all involved. The public and the officers safety is priority over the criminals. This includes situations in which a officer may have to use deadly force to prevent the criminal from potentially causing harm to the public. Of course if the officer uses deadly force there is no way of telling what might have happened if he didn't.

If a officer doesn't use whatever force is necessary to protect said officer and others and bodily injury or death results because the officer didn't use the tools that he had to prevent, which is his job, then the discussion would be different.

 

[Paragirl]

The officer didn't know how he would react (the college student) -- some people are mean drunks, some are happy. The fact that he took his baton, though, was an aggressive move. The officer also had no idea what other weapons this guy could have stuffed down his pants, or in his boot, or coat pocket. Sadly, it's the age we live in, where people buy guns as easily as they buy toilet paper. And oftentimes, those guns are more powerful than what local LE is carrying. If the officer felt his life was in danger, how can that be faulted? None of us were there.

I guess a good lesson to be learned from this is: do what the officer tells you, and don't disarm him. If you fail to follow those instructions, you're on your own, buddy. Take whatever consequences you get. I come from a family of LE, so this guy doesn't get any sympathy from me. Many are so quick to bash LE...until they need a police officer's help. YOU try going out there, and putting your life on the line to protect the public, then. THEN you can cast your stones. It's so easy to be judgmental when we're sitting in front of our computers, safe and sound, isn't it?

Lastly, Paragirl, none of the above was meant as a personal attack on you, just using your post as a jumping off point.

No worries, I don't feel attacked - haven't drawn my gun

I'm not bashing LE but in my opinion LE SHOULD be subject to scrutiny for their actions, ESPECIALLY in cases like this where, what appears to be excessive force (what are we at? 5 shots? 6?) resulted in the death of this young man. The balance of power is tipped heavily toward LEOs in that they have the law on their side, and are legally carrying deadly weapons to use as they see fit. I understand they must (or should) follow laws/rules/guidelines and their training procedures as well, however, right out of the gate they have the advantage in that they possess that power and credibility that goes along with being a respected member of LE. We probably don't have a lot of the crucial details that have been confirmed by LE to date, and may never know exactly what happened in this case, but what we do know is that Redus, who is reportedly a kind, level-headed, non-aggressive young man, was pulled over for driving erratically and then eventually shot multiple times, and killed. Whether this was a justified shooting or not, in my opinion it's not unreasonable to scrutinize this shooting and expect explanation/accountability from LE.

Right now we may all be sitting here safe and sound in front of our computers, but one day any one of us could be the next Redus. I don't know about you, but I want to know that LE is acting appropriately/proportionately, and being held accountable for their actions.

ETA - FWIW, I'm not saying that it's ok that Redus allegedly resisted arrest and attempted to assault the officer (IF that is in fact how it went down), just think that the amount of force seems excessive based on the details given to date.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

No worries, I don't feel attacked - haven't drawn my gun

I'm not bashing LE but in my opinion LE SHOULD be subject to scrutiny for their actions, ESPECIALLY in cases like this where, what appears to be excessive force (what are we at? 5 shots? 6?) resulted in the death of this young man. The balance of power is tipped heavily toward LEOs in that they have the law on their side, and are legally carrying deadly weapons to use as they see fit. I understand they must (or should) follow laws/rules/guidelines and their training procedures as well, however, right out of the gate they have the advantage in that they possess that power and credibility that goes along with being a respected member of LE. We probably don't have a lot of the crucial details that have been confirmed by LE to date, and may never know exactly what happened in this case, but what we do know is that Redus, who is reportedly a kind, level-headed, non-aggressive young man, was pulled over for driving erratically and then eventually shot multiple times, and killed. Whether this was a justified shooting or not, in my opinion it's not unreasonable to scrutinize this shooting and expect explanation/accountability from LE.

Right now we may all be sitting here safe and sound in front of our computers, but one day any one of us could be the next Redus. I don't know about you, but I want to know that LE is acting appropriately/proportionately, and being held accountable for their actions.

ETA - FWIW, I'm not saying that it's ok that Redus allegedly resisted arrest and attempted to assault the officer (IF that is in fact how it went down), just think that the amount of force seems excessive based on the details given to date.

BBM: IMO, using basic common sense by not breaking laws and/or resisting, when encountering an officer, will reduce the chance of being shot, to just about zero.

With the information that has been given to the GP in this case, it appears this officer gave him "more" than ample opportunity to comply.

This is one good article, I wish I could copy more of it:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/04/opinion/weinblatt-capitol-shooting/

So how should you judge the use of force by law enforcement officers?
Consider reasonableness: Police officers are trained to quickly assess possible threats. Force, particularly deadly force (with firearms, in this case), may be used if officers can explain their perception of the physical threats that put them and/or others at substantial risk of serious bodily injury or death. We can't Monday-morning quarterback the officers based on information that comes out later. We can only look at what a reasonable officer knew or should have known, and did or should have done, in a given situation.

I don't know how close he was to the officer in the situation, or how quickly he was coming at him. Nor do I know if he was shot in the leg by the officer and kept coming. I do know that in a split second decision of potential life or death, I as a citizen have the right to use deadly force and most certainly a officer does as well.

 

[LambChop]

No worries, I don't feel attacked - haven't drawn my gun

I'm not bashing LE but in my opinion LE SHOULD be subject to scrutiny for their actions, ESPECIALLY in cases like this where, what appears to be excessive force (what are we at? 5 shots? 6?) resulted in the death of this young man. The balance of power is tipped heavily toward LEOs in that they have the law on their side, and are legally carrying deadly weapons to use as they see fit. I understand they must (or should) follow laws/rules/guidelines and their training procedures as well, however, right out of the gate they have the advantage in that they possess that power and credibility that goes along with being a respected member of LE. We probably don't have a lot of the crucial details that have been confirmed by LE to date, and may never know exactly what happened in this case, but what we do know is that Redus, who is reportedly a kind, level-headed, non-aggressive young man, was pulled over for driving erratically and then eventually shot multiple times, and killed. Whether this was a justified shooting or not, in my opinion it's not unreasonable to scrutinize this shooting and expect explanation/accountability from LE.

Right now we may all be sitting here safe and sound in front of our computers, but one day any one of us could be the next Redus. I don't know about you, but I want to know that LE is acting appropriately/proportionately, and being held accountable for their actions.

ETA - FWIW, I'm not saying that it's ok that Redus allegedly resisted arrest and attempted to assault the officer (IF that is in fact how it went down), just think that the amount of force seems excessive based on the details given to date.

It appears he could have shot him once and killed him. But the number of shots fired and the areas on Redus' body that were hit indicate that Carter apparently was trying to stop him, not kill him, as Redus advanced on him closing the distance. Officers are trained to kill an assailant by shooting at the chest. If he had 5 shots to his chest it might indicate overkill. But shots to his neck, eye, arm, leg and chest sound more like an attempt to stop Redus from charging the officer with the final shot to the chest. The ME should be able to tell how close Redus was when those shots were fired.

LE has to come to a decision regarding whether or not the officer used excessive force. But we will not know that presumably until the full investigative report is released.

I know of a lot of people who are the nicest people but when they drink they lose control. This could have been the case here. Unfortunately Officer Carter did not know who this person was and could only judge him by his actions which appear from what is described on the police recording as out of control. Certainly when approached by the police officer, Redus did not have his best side showing and because of that he paid with his life. jmo

 

[liljim]

im not so sure about that lamb, a widely dispersed shot pattern is pretty standard for this sort of situation.

i dont claim to know, but i would bet that the officer was aiming center mass for all shots.

it wouldnt be uncommon for someone to completely miss 3 or 4 out of 6 shots under the (supposed) circumstances.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

im not so sure about that lamb, a widely dispersed shot pattern is pretty standard for this sort of situation.

i dont claim to know, but i would bet that the officer was aiming center mass for all shots.

it wouldnt be uncommon for someone to completely miss 3 or 4 out of 6 shots under the (supposed) circumstances.

And even if he was aiming center mass, IMO, he had every right to do so. I am basing my opinion on what I have to go on, from what has been stated so far.