TX - Cameron Redus, 23, UIW student, fatally shot by campus PD officer, 6 Dec 2013

  • #101
im not so sure about that lamb, a widely dispersed shot pattern is pretty standard for this sort of situation.

i dont claim to know, but i would bet that the officer was aiming center mass for all shots.

it wouldnt be uncommon for someone to completely miss 3 or 4 out of 6 shots under the (supposed) circumstances.

Police have to qualify on the shooting range routinely to keep their weapons. If he was considering killing him he could have done it in one shot since it appears from the evidence we know that the subject was coming towards the officer. I don't know but it sounds to me that the more the officer tried to shoot CR the angrier CR became and was more than ever determined to either beat on the officer or get his gun. A logical person who is shot the first time would probably stop in shock if nothing else. Why CR didn't do that is the mystery.

Dealing with someone out of control an officer does not always get a chance to second guess what he is about to do. They react as they were trained to do. Once the officer pulled his gun it is obvious he felt his life was in danger. Redus' snarky remark that was caught on the recording may prove the officer was right. jmo
 
  • #102
for a cop that is not under attack (ie incoming fire or currently being assaulted) to hit his target half the time is phenomenal, 1/3 or 1/4 of the time is probably average. for a cop to aim for a body part and hit it with any consistency, under these circumstances, would be consider elite, best of the best. extremely rare.
 
  • #103
for a cop that is not under attack (ie incoming fire or currently being assaulted) to hit his target half the time is phenomenal, 1/3 or 1/4 of the time is probably average. for a cop to aim for a body part and hit it with any consistency, under these circumstances, would be consider elite, best of the best. extremely rare.

And this information is taken from what report. I'd love to see it. LE just does not train their officers standing up and shooting at a target for hours. They train under all conditions. I'd say if someone is coming straight towards me even I could hit the target. Maybe not the heart but in the chest for sure and I've never shot a gun. Although I did throw a bean bag once at my husband and hit my target. LOL Pretty good for lack of training. My son-in-law had to train running, hitting the ground and then shooting. He had to hit his target in order to qualify. Their ability to hit their target is not taken lightly.

Also officers who fire their weapons and don't hit there targets end up not having jobs. Every bullet is accounted for so they better hit their target or keep the gun in it's holster. Hitting an innocent bystander instead of your target is not an option. I'd love to see statistics on that one for sure. jmo
 
  • #104
the problem is that you cannot train under the most important conditions - landing actual live shots on moving human targets while being attacked or while facing incoming fire.

im not saying they arent trained, im saying it is extremely difficult and a high success rate is probably never going to be reached.

just from a quick google search;

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/08/nyregion/08nypd.html?pagewanted=all

"But when they do fire, even at an armed suspect, there is often no one returning fire at the officers. Officers hit their targets roughly 34 percent of the time."

"In Los Angeles, which has 9,699 officers, the police fired 283 rounds in 2006, hitting their target 77 times, for a hit ratio of 27 percent, said Officer Ana Aguirre, a spokeswoman. Last year, they fired 264 rounds, hitting 76 times, for a 29 percent hit ratio, she said."

http://ohioccw.org/200811244136/unsafe-at-any-distance-the-failure-of-police-handgun-training.html

"The average hit rate for NYPD Officers involved in a gunfight between 1998 and 2006 was 18 percent. For every five shots, four bullets missed the intended target and went somewhere else. And that hit rate is consistent with the "normal" hit rate in armed encounters which hasn't changed much for years and years.

The average hit rate for Officers who shot at subjects who did not return fire, was 30 percent. Officers hit their targets 37 percent of the time at distances of seven yards or less. And hit rates fell off sharply to 23 percent at longer ranges."

http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf

"One issue illuminated by the Newhall incident was the fact that the four CHP officers fired fifteen rounds, three of which were 12-gauge buckshot cartridges, yet inflicted only one superficial wound upon their assailants. Typical of police confrontations, all rounds expended by the four deceased officers appear to have been within seven yards of their adversaries."
 
  • #105
the problem is that you cannot train under the most important conditions - landing actual live shots on moving human targets while being attacked or while facing incoming fire.

im not saying they arent trained, im saying it is extremely difficult and a high success rate is probably never going to be reached.

just from a quick google search;

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/08/nyregion/08nypd.html?pagewanted=all

"But when they do fire, even at an armed suspect, there is often no one returning fire at the officers. Officers hit their targets roughly 34 percent of the time."

"In Los Angeles, which has 9,699 officers, the police fired 283 rounds in 2006, hitting their target 77 times, for a hit ratio of 27 percent, said Officer Ana Aguirre, a spokeswoman. Last year, they fired 264 rounds, hitting 76 times, for a 29 percent hit ratio, she said."

http://ohioccw.org/200811244136/unsafe-at-any-distance-the-failure-of-police-handgun-training.html

"The average hit rate for NYPD Officers involved in a gunfight between 1998 and 2006 was 18 percent. For every five shots, four bullets missed the intended target and went somewhere else. And that hit rate is consistent with the "normal" hit rate in armed encounters which hasn't changed much for years and years.

The average hit rate for Officers who shot at subjects who did not return fire, was 30 percent. Officers hit their targets 37 percent of the time at distances of seven yards or less. And hit rates fell off sharply to 23 percent at longer ranges."

http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf

"One issue illuminated by the Newhall incident was the fact that the four CHP officers fired fifteen rounds, three of which were 12-gauge buckshot cartridges, yet inflicted only one superficial wound upon their assailants. Typical of police confrontations, all rounds expended by the four deceased officers appear to have been within seven yards of their adversaries."

But CR was not seven yards away, across the street or in a building. He was advancing towards the officers who was only a few feet away. It's possible Officer Carter was backing away from the suspect but clearly the chest shot that close to a suspect would have been an easy shot for him. We aren't talking about a distance here. This was close range. jmo
 
  • #106
we do not know what the distance was between the two at the time the shots were fired, but my opinion would be that regardless of the distance it is very hard to fire a handgun while under duress and hit your target precisely and consistently, it takes only an imperceptible flaw in form, or the slightest movement on your part or the targets part to turn a well aimed hit into a complete miss.

for the officer to have been choosing his locations and then adjusting them along with his intent for each shot would be superhuman IMO.

the idea that he could have taken one shot to end the threat if he chose to at any time is not realistic IMO.

if we ever hear the audio we should get a good sense of how quickly the shots were fired, i would bet on rapid succession with no possibility of adjusting aim in between shots... but hey, i have been wrong before once or twice ;)
 
  • #107
specifically regarding close range accuracy;

http://www.pointshooting.com/1asop9.htm

In 1990 the overall Police hit potential was 19%. Where distances could be determined, the hit percentages at distances under 15 yards were:

Less than 3 yards ..... 38%

In 1992 the overall Police hit potential was 17%. Where distances could be determined, the hit percentages at distances under 15 yards were:

Less than 3 yards ..... 28%
 
  • #108
specifically regarding close range accuracy;

http://www.pointshooting.com/1asop9.htm

In 1990 the overall Police hit potential was 19%. Where distances could be determined, the hit percentages at distances under 15 yards were:

Less than 3 yards ..... 38%

In 1992 the overall Police hit potential was 17%. Where distances could be determined, the hit percentages at distances under 15 yards were:

Less than 3 yards ..... 28%

This was over twenty years ago. And still not a couple of feet which is what we are dealing with here. Of course some of the shots fired may have been during a struggle. Since we don't have the full report it's just a guess. jmo
 
  • #109
please provide any study that supports what you have claimed, or that shows that accuracy has risen dramatically in recent years, thank you.

you asked for studies and i supplied many, you immediately dismissed them.

please link the source that tells us the distance the shots were fired from in this case. thank you.

cheers, i wont be replying to this thread again until there is significant new information.
 
  • #110
Well, if accuracy is that low then that's even more reason for a officer to take the kill shot instead of attempt to hit someone in the leg that is charging at you.

I see people in comments under MSM articles all the time, asking why the officer didn't shoot the perp in the leg. I imagine it would be very hard to hit a moving leg, taking the above statistics into account.
 
  • #111
please provide any study that supports what you have claimed, or that shows that accuracy has risen dramatically in recent years, thank you.

you asked for studies and i supplied many, you immediately dismissed them.

please link the source that tells us the distance the shots were fired from in this case. thank you.

cheers, i wont be replying to this thread again until there is significant new information.

I don't have reports and never stated that there were any. All we have is what has been reported so far. The only information I have available to me about qualifying is that 5 years ago my SIL had to qualify by running, falling to the ground, shooting and hitting his target. If he failed to do so repeatedly he would have been out of a job. I also know that 30 years ago police weapons in some inner cities were not the best. Today's weapons are meant to kill if they hit their target. If the officer feared the suspect was going to grab his gun he had to have been a short distance away and since he was trying to cuff him at the time. There is no report to say when and where the suspect had been hit first so we just do not know for sure what happened. It could be he was firing as the suspect advanced on him and missed his target and hit other body parts. The shots could have been fired during a struggle for the gun. This information has not been released yet so we just don't know for sure. But at some point the suspect was hit in the chest which may or may not have stopped him. jmo
 
  • #112
Well, if accuracy is that low then that's even more reason for a officer to take the kill shot instead of attempt to hit someone in the leg that is charging at you.

I see people in comments under MSM articles all the time, asking why the officer didn't shoot the perp in the leg. I imagine it would be very hard to hit a moving leg, taking the above statistics into account.

Yes, right. That is what makes me think the officer was not trying to kill this man. Injuries to the eye, neck, leg. Sounds as if he tried to stop him without killing him. Unless someone is on drugs shooting in the chest area (that killed the suspect) would dramatically slow him down so he was no longer a threat. jmo
 
  • #113
From yesterday afternoon, S.A. Express-News op-ed piece:

---
Why did a UIW police officer feel compelled to pursue Redus off campus?

As a sworn peace officer, Carter has enforcement powers across the state, not just the UIW campus. But there's a difference between actively seeking out issues and responding to them.

Was Redus intoxicated? And if so, how intoxicated was he?

Most important, was this an appropriate use of force?
---
UIW police officers also carry pepper spray, but Carter didn't have any with him. Is the pepper spray optional? Were there other nonlethal options?
---
The rest here: Questions need answers in University of Incarnate Word shooting
 
  • #114
Family, friends remember Texas student killed by campus cop; question officer's account

http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/235614961.html

BAYTOWN, Texas — Robert Cameron Redus was five months from graduating with a seemingly bright future ahead as he drove home from a night of celebrating the end of the semester at the University of the Incarnate Word in San Antonio.

The former co-valedictorian of his suburban Houston high school had made the dean's list at his Catholic university and was active on campus, according to friends and family, who described him as a caring and compassionate soul.......

More than 500 of Redus' family and friends gathered Thursday in his hometown of Baytown to remember him at a memorial service. Many are demanding answers to questions surrounding Redus' death, including how the unarmed student could have supposedly pushed around an officer twice his size and why the officer felt it necessary to fire six rounds at Redus.......more......
 
  • #115
Have they released the audio? I can't even imagine officer commands being repeated as many times as these.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
  • #116
Have they released the audio? I can't even imagine officer commands being repeated as many times as these.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I haven't seen it yet, danzn16.
 
  • #117
Mostly a repeat of the same info we already know but a more detailed discussion re state licensing powers.

According to investigators, no weapons other than Carter’s were found at the scene.

...Carter turned on his emergency lights, radioed for backup, and initiated a pursuit. However, Carter named the wrong street in his backup call, resulting in a delay in the arrival of the backup unit, apparently until after the shooting was over.

BBM

Redus had parked his truck at the apartment complex and “started to walk away,” according to Pruitt’s rather sinister description of a logical action anyone who lived at the apartment complex would normally take.

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/12/14/san-d14.html
 
  • #118
Really have gotten sick of authority escalating events and shooting young people to death. I did live through Kent State.

While at the same time acknowledging the good work LE truly does, and the burden:

S.A. owes wounded officer its gratitude. (San Antonio Express-News)
SAN ANTONIO — As of this writing, San Antonio Police Officer Robert Deckard is in critical condition, clinging to life after being shot in the head.

He may yet survive only to begin an intensive and lengthy recovery for traumatic brain injury. We just don't know.
---
more at the link, op-ed piece
 
  • #119
  • #120
http://www.mintpressnews.com/dubious-police-use-of-lethal-force-looms-over-the-nation/174839/

........An eyewitness who did not wish to be identified told a local radio station that the officer never warned Redus before shooting.

“I didn’t hear him say anything like, ‘Get down on your hands and knees,’ you know? I didn’t hear him say anything. He just started shooting,” the witness said. “He emptied the gun on him … Boom, boom, boom. Six shots — five or six.”........

As students and the victim’s family mourn, critics have raised questions about whether police applied lethal force for a minor infringement.......

“It makes no sense at all. I know Cameron would never do the things the police are claiming – it doesn’t fit,” Guajardo said.

“He’s not that type of person. And to think he’s capable physically taking a baton away from the police officer. Cameron is a 5’ 8 skinny guy — the cop is twice his size; no, this doesn’t make sense.”........

He accused the police of using excessive force.

“Even if he had been drinking, it’s a minor DUI; most people wouldn’t imagine being killed for this offense,” Guajardo said......more......
 

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