TX - Former Dallas Police Officer Amber Guyger, indicted for Murder of Botham Shem Jean #4

[Rocco]

How did she see a black man in a pitch dark apartment to shoot him? She obviously turned on the lights before she shot him and if she lied about that nothing she says is credible.

She's also got witnesses who heard her pounding and yelling.

Sounds like murder to me, too.

If she would have turned on the lights before she shot him, she would have seen that it wasn't her apt. I don't believe she ever said she turned on the lights before she shot him.

She said she saw a silhouette. No playing the race card with silhouettes---they're all black.

I don't think it matters. What matters is there's no disputing that when she shot at him, she intended to kill him. I believe her when she says she accidentally went into the wrong apt but she did not accidentally shoot him. She's never made the claim, that I've heard, that he threatened her in any way.

So what do we have here? Someone intentionally shoots another person, who was not a threat, and kills him---in his own home.

I wouldn't call that a mistake. I would call that murder.

 

[mickey2942]

The entire premise is absolutely ridiculous. And I find it deeply offensive that the victim's apartment was completely searched. Fine, search the area of the scene. They were looking for some justification.

 

[MyBelle]

If she would have turned on the lights before she shot him, she would have seen that it wasn't her apt. I don't believe she ever said she turned on the lights before she shot him.

She said she saw a silhouette. No playing the race card with silhouettes---they're all black.

I don't think it matters. What matters is there's no disputing that when she shot at him, she intended to kill him. I believe her when she says she accidentally went into the wrong apt but she did not accidentally shoot him. She's never made the claim, that I've heard, that he threatened her in any way.

So what do we have here? Someone intentionally shoots another person, who was not a threat, and kills him---in his own home.

I wouldn't call that a mistake. I would call that murder.

I don't believe she accidentally went to his apartment. I don't believe his door was ajar. She would have known it wasn't her apartment when she stepped on the doormat and looked down to insert her key. Witnesses heard her pounding on the door and shouting. This is clearly murder.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

The entire premise is absolutely ridiculous. And I find it deeply offensive that the victim's apartment was completely searched. Fine, search the area of the scene. They were looking for some justification.

This entire case is deeply offensive. It is deeply offensive that she failed to render aid.

JMO

 

[Amonet]

If she would have turned on the lights before she shot him, she would have seen that it wasn't her apt. I don't believe she ever said she turned on the lights before she shot him.

She said she saw a silhouette. No playing the race card with silhouettes---they're all black.

I don't think it matters. What matters is there's no disputing that when she shot at him, she intended to kill him. I believe her when she says she accidentally went into the wrong apt but she did not accidentally shoot him. She's never made the claim, that I've heard, that he threatened her in any way.

So what do we have here? Someone intentionally shoots another person, who was not a threat, and kills him---in his own home.

I wouldn't call that a mistake. I would call that murder.

BBM

That's a good point. If he was the intruder in her apartment, then she would likely be protected by "stand your ground" type laws.

She did shoot with intent. The shooting part wasn't an accident. She pulled out her gun and according to her, she shot at the silhouette of a man.

But she wasn't in her apartment, and she was the intruder, not Mr Jean.

I don't know how you'd classify it if these were the only facts. If someone knew they were walking into a neighbor's apartment and shot the occupant on purpose, then that would be murder.

What happens when someone hears a noise in the house and shoots, and it turns out it wasn't an intruder but a family member? They'd be shooting on purpose but in self defense? So in that sense, AG was shooting on purpose but in self defense, and it would be up to the prosecution to prove that there was more to it?

But is there an aspect of being careless? Could she have prevented what happened? Yes, she had several opportunities to check that it was actually her apartment, and we don't know how/why she didn't realise that before she shot the gun. So doesn't that mean there's an element of recklessness? What would that mean as far as the law's concerned? Does it bring it down from murder to a type of manslaughter? Or is it all just a horrible accident?

 

[MyBelle]

BBM

That's a good point. If he was the intruder in her apartment, then she would likely be protected by "stand your ground" type laws.

She did shoot with intent. The shooting part wasn't an accident. She pulled out her gun and according to her, she shot at the silhouette of a man.

But she wasn't in her apartment, and she was the intruder, not Mr Jean.

I don't know how you'd classify it if these were the only facts. If someone knew they were walking into a neighbor's apartment and shot the occupant on purpose, then that would be murder.

What happens when someone hears a noise in the house and shoots, and it turns out it wasn't an intruder but a family member? They'd be shooting on purpose but in self defense? So in that sense, AG was shooting on purpose but in self defense, and it would be up to the prosecution to prove that there was more to it?

But is there an aspect of being careless? Could she have prevented what happened? Yes, she had several opportunities to check that it was actually her apartment, and we don't know how/why she didn't realise that before she shot the gun. So doesn't that mean there's an element of recklessness? What would that mean as far as the law's concerned? Does it bring it down from murder to a type of manslaughter? Or is it all just a horrible accident?

Nothing about this case reflects mere carelessness. She shot twice and failed to render aid. According to the witnesses, they heard her pounding on his door. If the door was partially ajar as she claimed it would have open farther from the pounding. The lighting of the hall would have illuminated it enough for her to know it wasn't her apartment.

JMO

 

[Rocco]

BBM

That's a good point. If he was the intruder in her apartment, then she would likely be protected by "stand your ground" type laws.

She did shoot with intent. The shooting part wasn't an accident. She pulled out her gun and according to her, she shot at the silhouette of a man.

But she wasn't in her apartment, and she was the intruder, not Mr Jean.

I don't know how you'd classify it if these were the only facts. If someone knew they were walking into a neighbor's apartment and shot the occupant on purpose, then that would be murder.

What happens when someone hears a noise in the house and shoots, and it turns out it wasn't an intruder but a family member? They'd be shooting on purpose but in self defense? So in that sense, AG was shooting on purpose but in self defense, and it would be up to the prosecution to prove that there was more to it?

But is there an aspect of being careless? Could she have prevented what happened? Yes, she had several opportunities to check that it was actually her apartment, and we don't know how/why she didn't realise that before she shot the gun. So doesn't that mean there's an element of recklessness? What would that mean as far as the law's concerned? Does it bring it down from murder to a type of manslaughter? Or is it all just a horrible accident?

Responsible gun owners don't shoot at noises. They only fire their guns when they know what they're shooting at---especially if there are other people or pets in the home.
I can't come to terms with she was shooting in self defense. What was she defending herself against? He wasn't charging at her---he was probably trying to get away from her since she was shooting at him and advancing toward him.

 

[Via Marple]

Hmm.. Here's the video:

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So when do you think she was pacing in the corridor?

I guess it had to be either before the 911 call, or after. I don't think she was pacing during the 911 call...? 911 call lasted just under 6 minutes.

Which means she was calling someone other than 911 at that time.

 

[CrimeDawg123]

That's a good point. If he was the intruder in her apartment, then she would likely be protected by "stand your ground" type laws.

She did shoot with intent. The shooting part wasn't an accident. She pulled out her gun and according to her, she shot at the silhouette of a man.

But she wasn't in her apartment, and she was the intruder, not Mr Jean.

I don't know how you'd classify it if these were the only facts. If someone knew they were walking into a neighbor's apartment and shot the occupant on purpose, then that would be murder.

What happens when someone hears a noise in the house and shoots, and it turns out it wasn't an intruder but a family member? They'd be shooting on purpose but in self defense? So in that sense, AG was shooting on purpose but in self defense, and it would be up to the prosecution to prove that there was more to it?

But is there an aspect of being careless? Could she have prevented what happened? Yes, she had several opportunities to check that it was actually her apartment, and we don't know how/why she didn't realise that before she shot the gun. So doesn't that mean there's an element of recklessness? What would that mean as far as the law's concerned? Does it bring it down from murder to a type of manslaughter? Or is it all just a horrible accident?

BBM
This is what worries me: police officers are regularly given a pass because they claim to be "in fear for their life". If the defense can prove that she actually thought she was in her own apartment (which seems easy given the 911 call) then they can try to show she was "in fear for her life" and therefore had justification to shoot to kill. The jury could be swayed into giving her a pass particularly if the murder charge is their only option (i.e. they can't convict on a less manslaughter charge). I would be sick to my stomach if she walks.

 

[Gardenista]

Responsible gun owners don't shoot at noises. They only fire their guns when they know what they're shooting at---especially if there are other people or pets in the home.
I can't come to terms with she was shooting in self defense. What was she defending herself against? He wasn't charging at her---he was probably trying to get away from her since she was shooting at him and advancing toward him.

She wasn't shooting at a noise, she was shooting at the person she thought was in her apartment.

 

[CrimeDawg123]

So when do you think she was pacing in the corridor?

I guess it had to be either before the 911 call, or after. I don't think she was pacing during the 911 call...? 911 call lasted just under 6 minutes.

Which means she was calling someone other than 911 at that time.

IMO after the 911 call. It looks like other officers and paramedics had arrived by the time the neighbor took the cell phone video of AG pacing - you can see another officer at 0:25, before the second video of paramedics is added/spliced in.

 

[Rocco]

She wasn't shooting at a noise, she was shooting at the person she thought was in her apartment.

I didn't say she was.

My post was in response to Amonet's question: 'What happens when someone hears a noise in the house and shoots, and it turns out it wasn't an intruder but a family member?'

 

[mickey2942]

She wasn't shooting at a noise, she was shooting at the person she thought was in her apartment.

I think that she wanted to kill someone. She felt like that would be a "badge of courage" or something. The small bits we saw of her social media before it was erased showed a very insecure person, who had some sort of problem, like she had to prove "how bad she was" to the world.

Which is why, she didn't leave "her" apartment and call for backup, which is what any reasonable person, even with a gun, would do, she was not in imminent danger from Mr. Jean...I have a gun, but I don't walk around at 3am in downtown Chicago looking for a confrontation...and if someone was in my house, I would go back to my car, and call the police. I have no desire to shoot someone. There is something wrong about that attitude.

 

[CrimeDawg123]

I apologize if this video has been posted but I wanted to see it again after the 911 call. The woman says she started filming about 60 seconds after she heard the shots and heard Mr. Jean yell.

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[Spellbound]

She didnt, she only wants the jury to think she "accidently" walked in after believing her key "unlocked" the door she didnt know was ajar.
She wants them to believe there was a chance she really didnt know it wasnt her apartment. (before she murdered a man on his own couch)

Shes disgusting

Even this makes no sense for me. IF the door was even slightly ajar, just by attempting to insert a key into the lock would be enough pressure to push open the door without even turning the key. IF the door was not ajar and she inserted a key, it should not have fit.

 

[mickey2942]

Even this makes no sense for me. IF the door was even slightly ajar, just by attempting to insert a key into the lock would be enough pressure to push open the door without even turning the key. IF the door was not ajar and she inserted a key, it should not have fit.

I wonder if she was considered "Security" and had a pass key, and used that...there hasn't been any information regarding this, but I have thought about that possibility.

I hope we get more information during the trial.

 

[SandyQLS]

You might be right about that too!! It definitely will be interesting to find out if she had any blood on her.

I would think though that as she was talking to 911, she would have said something to the effect " I can see blood on his shirt so I lifted up/unbuttoned his shirt and can see the wound . I'm applying pressure to stop the bleeding." Some kind of update to 911 that they could pass along to the paramedics who were on the way. I believe 911 asked her where he was shot and meant where on his body, but she took it to mean the location, so replied 'In the apt.'

Operator: Where was he shot?

Guyger: He’s on the top left.

From Full transcript of Amber Guyger's 911 call after shooting Botham Jean

I listened to it again and I hear AG say: "He's, he's, on the top left."

Maybe it's just me, but I took AG's response to mean 'upper left body' and not to refer to his apartment.

If the injured person is breathing and has a pulse, then CPR is not performed. AG is a cop not an EMT, jmo there wasn't anything she could do, or would know to do, and if it was a chest wound then applying pressure would be useless.

As far as I know the DA is still withholding the autopsy?

 

[CrimeDawg123]

Operator: Where was he shot?

Guyger: He’s on the top left.

From Full transcript of Amber Guyger's 911 call after shooting Botham Jean

I listened to it again and I hear AG say: "He's, he's, on the top left."

Maybe it's just me, but I took AG's response to mean 'upper left body' and not to refer to his apartment.

If the injured person is breathing and has a pulse, then CPR is not performed. AG is a cop not an EMT, jmo there wasn't anything she could do, or would know to do, and if it was a chest wound then applying pressure would be useless.

As far as I know the DA is still withholding the autopsy?

Yeah I was wondering about that also - was she describing where she shot him or where his apartment was located, not sure. I realize she is not a paramedic but every cop is trained in first aid and it is protocol for them to assist with life saving measures until EMS arrives. It appears she attempted no such thing.

 

[mickey2942]

Yeah I was wondering about that also - was she describing where she shot him or where his apartment was located, not sure. I realize she is not a paramedic but every cop is trained in first aid and it is protocol for them to assist with life saving measures until EMS arrives. It appears she attempted no such thing.

I would like to see her cell phone records for that night, before the incident and after the incident, who did she talk to before? Did she mention being tired? Did she call her union rep, right after shooting Jean? Before even rendering aid?

 

[Via Marple]

I apologize if this video has been posted but I wanted to see it again after the 911 call. The woman says she started filming about 60 seconds after she heard the shots and heard Mr. Jean yell.

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Trying to sort out the time line....

Video lasted 7 minutes. Started 60 secs after shots(2) were heard.

911 call lasted 6 minutes. EMT/LE arrived at the end of the call.

If the 7 minutes in that video included EMT leaving with Botham on the stretcher, then yes it looks like AG was actually on the 911 call while pacing the corridor. It wasn't a personal call then.

She could've popped back into the apartment and checked on Botham every now and then. That part of the corridor seen in the video was not far from his door, maybe just 2 doors down, iirc from my analysis back then.

MOO