TX - Former Dallas Police Officer Amber Guyger, indicted for Murder of Botham Shem Jean #4

[HongKongPhooey]

Yes, it is in Texas. The law is here: PENAL CODE CHAPTER 9. JUSTIFICATION EXCLUDING CRIMINAL RESPONSIBILITY
And states:

"a person is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force. The actor's belief that the force was immediately necessary as described by this subsection is presumed to be reasonable if the actor:
(1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the force was used:
(A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor's occupied habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment;"
...​

BBM. If a person is in your home and they are not supposed to be, you have a right to shoot them if you reasonably believe you are in danger. This law is sometimes referred to as the "Castle Doctrine". I am by no means an expert on this and here is a link where a lawyer tries to explain to us laymen: The Castle Doctrine: Understanding Self-Defense in Texas

This case is so fascinating because of this law and whether the defense can spin it to the jury to believe that the castle doctrine is applicable because AG truly believed she was in her own apartment. We're going to see some mighty fancy footwork by the defense.

Blimey

 

[HongKongPhooey]

Yes, I think this will be the second prong of the defense strategy:
1) She thought she was in her own apartment therefore justified in shooting to defend herself
2) The reason she thought she was in her own apartment was because she was completely off her nut because DPD was negligent in overworking her. DPD is at fault.

Hence the...I'm so tired...

 

[CrimeDawg123]

This is nice:

“I always hear that he was a positive guy,” said student Antonio Montez. “He radiated like a giving spirit and a kind spirit. He was a leader on this campus for black men just like me.”
Montez, 22, is a senior at Harding University. The Carrollton, Texas native is one of four students who received the inaugural Botham Jean Memorial Scholarship. They are the first recipients of the scholarship.
”I feel honored and humbled.” Montez said.​

Carrollton native among first to receive Botham Jean Memorial Scholarship

ETA the more I learn about Botham John, the bigger this tragedy gets, and the more angry I get at the injustice here.

 

[HongKongPhooey]

Over here, it kicks off bigtime in these cases. Obviously, it's not usually gun related. This was a recent case which was national headline news. Thought it may be of interest, just as an illustration.

Stabbed burglar was lawfully killed

ETA not saying our legal system is right or wrong, the differences are just quite interesting. The victim of the burglary, the old fella, reportedly had to move house due to being terrorised by the intruder's family

 

[CrimeDawg123]

Over here, it kicks off bigtime in these cases. Obviously, it's not usually gun related. This was a recent case which was national headline news. Thought it may be of interest, just as an illustration.

Stabbed burglar was lawfully killed

ETA not saying our legal system is right or wrong, the differences are just quite interesting. The victim of the burglary, the old fella, reportedly had to move house due to being terrorised by the intruder's family

Thanks for that link, it is very interesting the differences.

 

[mickey2942]

Yes, I think this will be the second prong of the defense strategy:
1) She thought she was in her own apartment therefore justified in shooting to defend herself
2) The reason she thought she was in her own apartment was because she was completely off her nut because DPD was negligent in overworking her. DPD is at fault.

This is interesting. And I wonder how far reaching this could go. Pilots can only fly eight hours a day, that can still add up to a 12 hour day, with stops.

If the government steps in, because so many officers continue with the defense "I shot the guy because I was over tired from working so much overtime". That will really be interesting. The police officers union fights to keep OT, which can boost the pay to double or more. And when an officer's pension is based on high three years of salary, and they made an average of $125,000 a year with the overtime, that is significantly different than the typical moan, "Officers don't get paid enough".

The officers at the school district I worked at, got shift differential for night work, over time, and they complained that they were not paid as well as teachers.

So, they got a raise. Great. I never was paid overtime, shift differential, and had two masters degrees. The guy with a high school diploma made close to my salary. Whatever.

 

[CrimeDawg123]

This is interesting. And I wonder how far reaching this could go. Pilots can only fly eight hours a day, that can still add up to a 12 hour day, with stops.

If the government steps in, because so many officers continue with the defense "I shot the guy because I was over tired from working so much overtime". That will really be interesting. The police officers union fights to keep OT, which can boost the pay to double or more. And when an officer's pension is based on high three years of salary, and they made an average of $125,000 a year with the overtime, that is significantly different than the typical moan, "Officers don't get paid enough".

The officers at the school district I worked at, got shift differential for night work, over time, and they complained that they were not paid as well as teachers.

So, they got a raise. Great. I never was paid overtime, shift differential, and had two masters degrees. The guy with a high school diploma made close to my salary. Whatever.

Oh, I never understood why we taxpayers pay so much overtime as opposed to just hiring more officers. But you've just explained it - the police officers union.

 

[mickey2942]

Oh, I never understood why we taxpayers pay so much overtime as opposed to just hiring more officers. But you've just explained it - the police officers union.

Exactly. The police union doesn't want police departments to have a surplus of officers. Having less officers, means a plethora of overtime opportunities. Don't feel bad for officers working on Christmas, they are making double time, hourly rate of pay, and if they worked enough hours that pay period, New Year's Eve could be triple pay.

 

[CrimeDawg123]

Is it normal procedure for a defense attorney to introduce his client and say he is proud to represent her (or him)?

I think it's fairly normal.

 

[CrimeDawg123]

Put the... key in? Consistent with the whole speech, claiming she was not at fault.

I have also noticed something that I didn't notice before... is it normal that 911 did not ask her for the extent of the victim's injuries? Not give her instructions how to attend to him? Operator seemed to be treating her as a victim.

Did the police arrive first at the end of the call? Not the ambulance? Because she's a cop, they sent cops out right away?

I think 911 did not ask about the victim because it was an officer involved shooting and a completely different 911 protocol kicked in.

The police did arrive first. This is probably just because they were closer than EMS. I don't think they sent cops just because she is a cop. I think they sent cops because AG asked for them but mostly because it was a shooting.

Here's part of the call. I don't know what 911 would have done if AG answered the question, 'no I don't need police'. I'm guessing they would have been sent anyway.

Operator: Dallas 911. This is Carla. What is your emergency?
Guyger: Um. Hi this is um off-duty officer. Umm, can I get, I need EMS, uhmm, I’m in number
Operator: Do you need police as well or just EMS?
Guyger: Yes. I need both.​

 

[wary]

Blimey

Keyword is: ‘reasonably.’ Is a jury really going to find that she had a reasonable belief that she was in her own apartment?

I guess we’ll just have to find out.

 

[BeachSky]

I think 911 did not ask about the victim because it was an officer involved shooting and a completely different 911 protocol kicked in.

The police did arrive first. This is probably just because they were closer than EMS. I don't think they sent cops just because she is a cop. I think they sent cops because AG asked for them but mostly because it was a shooting.

Here's part of the call. I don't know what 911 would have done if AG answered the question, 'no I don't need police'. I'm guessing they would have been sent anyway.

Operator: Dallas 911. This is Carla. What is your emergency?
Guyger: Um. Hi this is um off-duty officer. Umm, can I get, I need EMS, uhmm, I’m in number
Operator: Do you need police as well or just EMS?
Guyger: Yes. I need both.​

She also needed - a supervisor -

 

[mickey2942]

She also needed - a supervisor -

"A "supervisor"". Of course, rather than an ambulance. Stat!

 

[Jax49]

"A "supervisor"". Of course, rather than an ambulance. Stat!

Even after she shot him she had one concern - herself. Can't post what I really think of her.

moo

 

[Rocco]

Keyword is: ‘reasonably.’ Is a jury really going to find that she had a reasonable belief that she was in her own apartment?

I guess we’ll just have to find out.

From the link 'reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary'.

Why the immediacy? Can't wait for the defense to explain that.

 

[mickey2942]

Keyword is: ‘reasonably.’ Is a jury really going to find that she had a reasonable belief that she was in her own apartment?

I guess we’ll just have to find out.

I would find it a very high bar to convict a police officer who shot someone during their time working.

This is an officer who walked into a man's home, and shot him when he stood up from watching football on his sofa.

I don't know why this wouldn't be a slam dunk conviction. However, I was shocked when Casey Anthony was found not guilty.

 

[Lillymac]

Exactly. The police union doesn't want police departments to have a surplus of officers. Having less officers, means a plethora of overtime opportunities. Don't feel bad for officers working on Christmas, they are making double time, hourly rate of pay, and if they worked enough hours that pay period, New Year's Eve could be triple pay.

Which police union/association are you commenting on? You do know that there is more than one in Dallas.

 

[mickey2942]

Which police union/association are you commenting on? You do know that there is more than one in Dallas.

I do know that. And know quite a bit about LEO. They all run pretty much the same way.
Special Report: Police union contracts offer shield of protection

 

[Lillymac]

I do know that. And know quite a bit about LEO. They all run pretty much the same way.
Special Report: Police union contracts offer shield of protection

So which one are you referring to? I'm curious to know because it would seem their needs, etc. would be quite different. BTW I know quite a bit about police officers policies, training, and lives also. Dallas and Garland PD. specifically. Plus I've lived in the metroplex all my life. That's a long time cuz I'm old.

 

[mickey2942]

So which one are you referring to? I'm curious to know because it would seem their needs, etc. would be quite different. BTW I know quite a bit about police officers policies, training, and lives also. Dallas and Garland PD. specifically. Plus I've lived in the metroplex all my life. That's a long time cuz I'm old.

I encourage you to do your own research on overtime pay, and police unions. And how the overtime pay, leads to officer's exhaustion.

Maybe overtime needs to be capped to 20 hours a pay period. The unions would scream about that.