TX - Former Dallas Police Officer Amber Guyger, indicted for Murder of Botham Shem Jean #4

[CrimeDawg123]

Stand your ground/castle doctrine incident in Georgia: Police: Georgia homeowner shoots, kills 3 teenage boys wearing masks

Contrast that to AG's potential use of the castle doctrine.

 

[mickey2942]

Stand your ground/castle doctrine incident in Georgia: Police: Georgia homeowner shoots, kills 3 teenage boys wearing masks

Contrast that to AG's potential use of the castle doctrine.

Totally different. I interpret the "Castle Doctrine", that the home owner is protecting his property from an aggressor. In AG's case, she wasn't in any danger, she wasn't even defending herself. She was the "aggressor" in this situation, even if she thought that it was her home.

 

[mickey2942]

Jury Has Been Chosen In Amber Guyger Trial Over Shooting Death Of Botham Jean

The jury has been chosen. Sounds like the judge is seriously considering sequestration.

This actually favors the defendant, as the jurors for Casey Anthony, Zimmerman, and OJ were sequestered. Didn't work out well for Bill Cosby though.

How the Psychological Toll of Isolation Might Be Affecting Bill Cosby Jurors

 

[CrimeDawg123]

Jury Has Been Chosen In Amber Guyger Trial Over Shooting Death Of Botham Jean

The jury has been chosen. Sounds like the judge is seriously considering sequestration.

This actually favors the defendant, as the jurors for Casey Anthony, Zimmerman, and OJ were sequestered. Didn't work out well for Bill Cosby though.

How the Psychological Toll of Isolation Might Be Affecting Bill Cosby Jurors

I think they should be sequestered. The trial is expected to last 2 weeks. That is not a terribly long time IMO.

 

[Wishbone]

IMO I don't see anything but ANGER showing in this mugshot.

 

[rosesfromangels]

IMO I don't see anything but ANGER showing in this mugshot.

She does have a look of defiance, agree. Perhaps it’s an attempt at being stoic. She looked pretty upset in the booking video.

This gal needs a thorough psychological exam, in my amateur opinion. I wonder if that will be part of this process. Further, I’d like to see a hair strand tested for anabolic steroids. It would still show in the hair despite the time lapse.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[Kubirai]

Yeah, that’s what I’d like to know. I’m not even sure if that’s legal or SOP. Plenty of pros around here to school us. (ThankU) What circumstances would lead to a search of her residence? And how/why to difference as to the search of a regular joe/jane on the block doing the same thing that night?

Search warrant could have been issued if DPD investigators wanted to check if AG had met BJ earlier, in her apartment.

 

[Hraefn]

How will Amber Guyger's attorneys defend her in murder trial for killing Botham Jean?

Sep 16, 2019

"When Amber Guyger’s murder trial begins a week from Monday, the jury won’t be deciding whether she killed Botham Jean.

The fact that she pulled the trigger isn't in dispute. Jurors instead must decide whether killing the unarmed 26-year-old accountant in his own apartment was a crime. And if so, what crime?

Guyger's attorneys are expected to argue that she isn’t guilty of a crime because she made a “mistake of fact,” meaning she believed something to be true but it wasn’t.

The Dallas officer, who has since been fired, told police that she confused Jean’s apartment at the South Side Flats for her own on the night of Sept. 6, 2018, and she mistook Jean for a burglar.

But Guyger can’t just say she made a mistake and be found not guilty, legal experts said. The jury must believe her mistake was reasonable. And that leads to more questions.

The “mistake of fact” defense might be unfamiliar outside legal circles, but it’s an argument used often in Dallas courts and nationwide, Dallas defense attorney Russell Wilson said.

“Mistake of fact is the same thing that you're hearing when you hear the police say, ‘We thought he had a gun,’” Wilson said...."

How will Amber Guyger's attorneys defend her in murder trial for killing Botham Jean?

BBM. This will be very interesting. It does look like an objective reasonableness standard will be applied to her "mistake."

 

[Hraefn]

If not Shem's, whose drugs were they?

The obvious answer would be the other person who was in the apartment that night, but again it is not relevant.

 

[Hraefn]

@Hraefn what do you think?

I'm having to dig back into my mental law school notes on mistake of fact, but I think I recall that the "mistake of fact" defense goes to the mens rea, or the mental/intent aspect of the crime.

So IMO even if they prevail on the "mistake of fact" issue, the case will basically then be at square one with the assumption that the defendant had the protections of the Castle Doctrine. And then even if the defense prevails on that defense, she would only be not guilty of the Murder charge; manslaughter and criminally negligent homicide would still be on the table as the mens rea is the main difference between Murder and the lesser charges.

I think any juror bias, especially implicit bias, will be more likely to determine the outcome than all of the complicated law, TBH.

JMO and reminder that I don't practice criminal law and am not licensed in TX at all.

I'm curious what you think too @gitana1

 

[Hraefn]

the search warrant was for a marijuana grinder and 10.4 grams of marijuana, according to cbs47 local tv in dallas. 10.4 grams is a lot of dope, based on pictures I see online. plus, cops are regularly drug tested. I wish this incident hadn't happened, like everyone else. but I am bringing up salient facts that will be brought out at trial, and not acknowledging them is simply burying your head in the sand...now I will cease and let everyone continue digging their very deep sand holes

I'm curious what makes the marijuana relevant in your opinion? How do you think it will be brought up at trial? Do you think the defense will claim that Guyger knew of the marijuana when she shot Jean? Or that the defense will argue Jean was SO stoned that he was aggressive? AFAIK there is no defense argument that his doing something illegal was any cause for Jean being killed. And AFAIK Jean had no legal duty to cooperate with any verbal instructions given to him by the defendant (nor do I believe marijuana would effect his decision or ability to comply).
If I were prosecuting I would absolutely object to the marijuana coming in. It's prejudicial and has no relevance IMO.

 

[Hraefn]

Here’s a visual to help put this in perspective. It doesn’t look like that much to me. This would be less than 1/2 an ounce if I am reading this correctly.
What Does One Gram of Cannabis Look Like? A Visual Guide to Cannabis Quantities

Don’t partake myself, so truly amateur opinion and speculation

10 grams is approximately a handful. Marijuana is completely illegal here (Kentucky) but they don't even prosecute for less than an ounce in my city. IMO it is not a large amount. Maybe $150 street value. JMO.

 

[CrimeDawg123]

I'm having to dig back into my mental law school notes on mistake of fact, but I think I recall that the "mistake of fact" defense goes to the mens rea, or the mental/intent aspect of the crime.

So IMO even if they prevail on the "mistake of fact" issue, the case will basically then be at square one with the assumption that the defendant had the protections of the Castle Doctrine. And then even if the defense prevails on that defense, she would only be not guilty of the Murder charge; manslaughter and criminally negligent homicide would still be on the table as the mens rea is the main difference between Murder and the lesser charges.

I think any juror bias, especially implicit bias, will be more likely to determine the outcome than all of the complicated law, TBH.

JMO and reminder that I don't practice criminal law and am not licensed in TX at all.

I'm curious what you think too @gitana1

All y'all (especially the lawyers here) might find this discussion interesting. This is from the Harris County Criminal Laywer's Association. Harris County Texas is where Houston is. This video is from a year ago, just after the incident occurred.

The relevant discussion of the Amber Guyger case starts around 31:35.

 

[Handsome Sailor]

I'm curious what makes the marijuana relevant in your opinion? How do you think it will be brought up at trial? Do you think the defense will claim that Guyger knew of the marijuana when she shot Jean? Or that the defense will argue Jean was SO stoned that he was aggressive? AFAIK there is no defense argument that his doing something illegal was any cause for Jean being killed. And AFAIK Jean had no legal duty to cooperate with any verbal instructions given to him by the defendant (nor do I believe marijuana would effect his decision or ability to comply).
If I were prosecuting I would absolutely object to the marijuana coming in. It's prejudicial and has no relevance IMO.

I do believe potent marijuana would impact things like engaging in conversation, remembering to shut a door, so it couldmbe admitted to explain the interchange between the two. I mean, if it wasn't relevant, why did they do toxicology on both jean and guyger?

 

[imstilla.grandma]

Wade Goodwyn, a National Desk correspondent for NPR, is covering Guyger’s trial, and says Guyger claims she shot Jean in self-defense.

“The defense is going to argue something called a mistake of fact, which is that Amber Guyger got into this apartment, she thought she saw a person who was an intruder, and she simply defended herself,” Goodwyn says.

Guyger’s defense team will argue that if she is convicted of a crime, it should be manslaughter, not murder, Goodwyn says.

On the other hand, prosecutors will likely argue that Guyger “was an off-duty police officer who pulled her service revolver and shot to kill Botham Jean, and did,” he says. “That’s murder.”
https://www.texasstandard.org/stories/amber-guyger-will-be-tried-for-murder-in-dallas-county/

 

[Hraefn]

I do believe potent marijuana would impact things like engaging in conversation, remembering to shut a door, so it couldmbe admitted to explain the interchange between the two. I mean, if it wasn't relevant, why did they do toxicology on both jean and guyger?

Toxicology is routinely taken for victims and defendants in a fatal shooting AFAIK, but I am no expert on that. And I thought the doors automatically closed? But thanks for responding, I can understand what you mean. We will see next week.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Wade Goodwyn, a National Desk correspondent for NPR, is covering Guyger’s trial, and says Guyger claims she shot Jean in self-defense.

“The defense is going to argue something called a mistake of fact, which is that Amber Guyger got into this apartment, she thought she saw a person who was an intruder, and she simply defended herself,” Goodwyn says.

Guyger’s defense team will argue that if she is convicted of a crime, it should be manslaughter, not murder, Goodwyn says.

On the other hand, prosecutors will likely argue that Guyger “was an off-duty police officer who pulled her service revolver and shot to kill Botham Jean, and did,” he says. “That’s murder.”
https://www.texasstandard.org/stories/amber-guyger-will-be-tried-for-murder-in-dallas-county/

Well this certainly is going to be a tragic, but interesting trial. I really hope that the ex-Officer has the class to demonstrate sorrow and remorse of the loss of life of an upstanding member of the community. While his mortal life has ended, her earthly life and earning potential has been forever changed. (NOT saying they are equivalent ). Whatever she does earn in the future will likely go directly to his family, or a large portion of it. As it should.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[imstilla.grandma]

The head of the Dallas Police Association is calling for the Amber Guyger murder trial, scheduled to begin Monday, September 23, to be delayed.

Sgt. Mike Mata is calling for the trial to be delayed 60 to 90 days based on safety concerns.

Officers have been denied time off and are undergoing crowd control training in preparation for the outcome of the trial which has generated a year of protests, threats and stirred up emotions on both sides.

“We’re going to have this trial during period of time that we have 1 million people come visit the city within a calendar month,” said Sgt. Mata. “Within those two weeks we will have 1 million people come in and out of that fair and I think it’s just very, very poor leadership. I do believe that the smart thing would’ve been to just delay this trial 60 days, 90 days. It’s unheard of that a trial any trial much less a trial of this magnitude didn’t have one delay.”
Dallas Police Association Wants Amber Guyger Murder Trial Delayed Due To Safety Concerns

 

[imstilla.grandma]

 

[CrimeDawg123]

The head of the Dallas Police Association is calling for the Amber Guyger murder trial, scheduled to begin Monday, September 23, to be delayed.

Sgt. Mike Mata is calling for the trial to be delayed 60 to 90 days based on safety concerns.

Officers have been denied time off and are undergoing crowd control training in preparation for the outcome of the trial which has generated a year of protests, threats and stirred up emotions on both sides.

“We’re going to have this trial during period of time that we have 1 million people come visit the city within a calendar month,” said Sgt. Mata. “Within those two weeks we will have 1 million people come in and out of that fair and I think it’s just very, very poor leadership. I do believe that the smart thing would’ve been to just delay this trial 60 days, 90 days. It’s unheard of that a trial any trial much less a trial of this magnitude didn’t have one delay.”
Dallas Police Association Wants Amber Guyger Murder Trial Delayed Due To Safety Concerns

The courthouse is located downtown, and is a few miles west of the fairgrounds.

Google Maps