GUILTY TX - Former Dallas Police Officer Amber Guyger, indicted for Murder of Botham Shem Jean #8

[BellaVita]

IT is a legal issue and legal US law trumps natural law , so yes it was a huge mistake on a judge that should know that !!!

So do you disagree with Natural Law that says 3 Strikes on a shoplifting charge and spend your life in prison is not right? I will bet you don't agree with those 3 strikes laws (maybe I am wrong), but, hey, it's US law and that trumps Natural Law. Can't have it both ways.

 

[BellaVita]

She can sue Dallas county .

At this point, good on her then. Panties will surely be in a bunch.

 

[Hope4More]

Here's the thing though if her Attorneys think it would help her appeal they can say she WAS coerced into going along with it and didn't know what else to do in the moment!!!

Nah. First of all, religion didn't come up even tangentially during trial. Grounds for appeal are solely about whether or not a judge abused her discretion or misapplied the law in making rulings adverse to a defendant. ****

If Amber felt coerced by Kemp's gift of a Bible and instructions on redemption (which she clearly didn't), she could file her own ethics complaint against Kemp, but any such complaint wouldn't be part of the trial record..

****ETA: Jurors did discuss religious considerations during the sentencing phase. But, the law specifically allows jurors to bring their own morality to the table, and instructs jurors they are permitted to find mitigation wherever they choose to look.

 

[Hope4More]

Responding to BBM:
Following Natural Law is never a mistake. There is a higher power than laws/mandates made by flawed human beings. It is laughable that the same people denigrating the Judge because what she did is "a mistake" are the same folks tearing down man-made laws with long sentences for so-called minor offenses.

Sorry. Don't do religion here.

 

[Charlot123]

I am not religious but to a person of devout Christian faith...it is not just personal. Believers are instructed to witness. In a time where people of faith are ridiculed, her actions showed tremendous courage of her convictions. If people abided by the 10 Commandments, how great a place would this world be? I am frankly envious of Brandt Jean and the Judge. Amber is undoubtedly a flawed human being. So many up on their high horse, hiding behind the internet. There are just some people in this world who shine. There is a woman at the local convenience store who just shines. Her light is undeniable to all she meets. The light of this Judge SHINES. The world needs people like this. IMO.

@BellaVita, I wrote a lot answering the phrase about people of faith being ridiculed, and erased it all, because such discussions never arrive at any common denominator.

However, we live in the country where there is the separation of secular and religious life. And honestly, we are lucky that we do. The Judge represents the rule of the law. And our law should be impartial.

Religious convictions are sometimes at variance with the existing legal system. Our personal convictions might differ. We all know it. But we, as humans of different genders, ethnicities, beliefs, convictions, just very different people, are still governed by the same law. We should be equal under it.

What could a good Christian judge do, in my view? Come home and pray for the souls of Botham Jean and Amber Guyger. Quietly, as it should be between her and the Lord.

Instead, there was a mega-show in courtroom. This is how I view it, sorry. It is not faith, it is something showy. She had the chance to demonstrate her religiosity, and she did it.

As to Amber Guyger, I don't know what one should do in this situation, to be forgiven.

Gandhi gave a good advice in this situation. A Hindu man came to him during Hindu-Pakistani incident and said he killed a Muslim child and he could not live with his conscience. Gandhi advised to find a boy who lost his parents during the incident, and raise him, but raise as a Muslim.

This is forgiveness by the laws of karma.

 

[BellaVita]

Sorry. Don't do religion here.

I am not religious. But I respect it even though I don't do that. It's called tolerance for other views. Higher power did not refer to God. Not for me.

 

[Mickey Mouse]

The subject of the conversation was whether or not Kemp acted appropriately. It was pointed out to you by another poster that the trial wasn't in fact over until after appeals (add PCR).

The issue isn't whether or not Kemp's actions prejudiced AMBER's due process rights. What was being discussed, and what I also commented about, was that Kemp's actions crossed the line.

Defending her actions as harmless because the "trial was over" is factually incorrect (trial isn't over), but misses the point in any case, imo. Getting caught up in the moment is human and understandable, as is making mistakes. That she was still wearing her robes, in a courtroom, in public is what made her actions a mistake.

Agree. And I want to point out that the state has due process rights as well. Should the case be returned to her on appeal, it is a reasonable question as to whether she can be fair and impartial to the interests of the state, and not biased in favor of AG.

 

[Recidivist]

The subject of the conversation was whether or not Kemp acted appropriately. It was pointed out to you by another poster that the trial wasn't in fact over until after appeals (add PCR).

The issue isn't whether or not Kemp's actions prejudiced AMBER's due process rights. What was being discussed, and what I also commented about, was that Kemp's actions crossed the line.

Defending her actions as harmless because the "trial was over" is factually incorrect (trial isn't over), but misses the point in any case, imo. Getting caught up in the moment is human and understandable, as is making mistakes. That she was still wearing her robes, in a courtroom, in public is what made her actions a mistake.

I'm betting that God did not see a mistake in her actions. I doubt if she cares what anyone else thinks.

 

[Hraefn]

Ive seen that the appeal has already been filed on fox 4 this morning

I still haven’t been able to find anything online. If anyone sees a link please post, TIA!

 

[BellaVita]

@BellaVita, I wrote a lot answering the phrase about people of faith being ridiculed, and erased it all, because such discussions never arrive at any common denominator.

However, we live in the country where there is the separation of secular and religious life. And honestly, we are lucky that we do. The Judge represents the rule of the law. And our law should be impartial.

Religious convictions are sometimes at variance with the existing legal system. Our personal convictions might differ. We all know it. But we, as humans of different genders, ethnicities, beliefs, convictions, just very different people, are still governed by the same law. We should be equal under it.

What could a good Christian judge do, in my view? Come home and pray for the souls of Botham Jean and Amber Guyger. Quietly, as it should be between her and the Lord.

Instead, there was a mega-show in courtroom. This is how I view it, sorry. It is not faith, it is something showy. She had the chance to demonstrate her religiosity, and she did it.

As to Amber Guyger, I don't know what one should do in this situation, to be forgiven.

Gandhi gave a good advice in this situation. A Hindu man came to him during Hindu-Pakistani incident and said he killed a Muslim child and he could not live with his conscience. Gandhi advised to find a boy who lost his parents during the incident, and raise him, but raise as a Muslim.

This is forgiveness by the laws of karma.

I appreciate your thoughtful response. I truly mean that. I just do not personally believe the Judge did this to show off. As for Amber, I do believe she is guilty according to law. I also know the power of forgiveness and how that feels. Just incredibly moved by both Brandt Jean and the Judge.

 

[sloane7777]

So do you disagree with Natural Law that says 3 Strikes on a shoplifting charge and spend your life in prison is not right? I will bet you don't agree with those 3 strikes laws (maybe I am wrong), but, hey, it's US law and that trumps Natural Law. Can't have it both ways.

Your missing the point , I thought it was touching but legally not smart as Amber can if she wants complain about a bible being offered to her and her savvy lawyers will probably in the end use this to their advantage .
and even though the Judge didn't impose the sentence, she did make the rules so, Yes it does make a difference.

 

[Hraefn]

The Bible and hug interaction between Judge Kemp and AG is probably not relevant to AG’s actual appeal. It’s the fact that AG’s case could come back to Judge Kemp after an appeals process that makes the Judge vulnerable to investigation/sanctions/removal because the Judge was potentially not finished with the case. I don’t think the judge’s actions give AG any new grounds for appeal. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[BellaVita]

Your missing the point , I thought it was touching but legally not smart as Amber can if she wants complain about a bible being offered to her and her savvy lawyers will probably in the end use this to their advantage .
and even though the Judge didn't impose the sentence, she did make the rules so, Yes it does make a difference.

I may have missed the point in your opinion, but you said that US law trumps Natural Law. You never answered if you believe that to be the case with 3 strikes laws for shoplifting. Because 3 strikes laws ARE US laws. Are those laws good and valid or is Natural Law more appropriate? I will go with Natural Law every time.

 

[sloane7777]

I may have missed the point in your opinion, but you said that US law trumps Natural Law. You never answered if you believe that to be the case with 3 strikes laws for shoplifting. Because 3 strikes laws ARE US laws. Are those laws good and valid or is Natural Law more appropriate? I will go with Natural Law every time.

No you are right I don't agree with 3 strikes At all for shoplifting but it is in place, so what can we do ?

 

[Seattle1]

Ive seen that the appeal has already been filed on fox 4 this morning

I'm only seeing AG's lawyers are expected to file appeal. (Fox4 news)

Amber Guyger’s legal team expected to appeal murder conviction

 

[sloane7777]

No you are right I don't agree with 3 strikes At all for shoplifting but it is in place, so what can we do ?

I may have missed the point in your opinion, but you said that US law trumps Natural Law. You never answered if you believe that to be the case with 3 strikes laws for shoplifting. Because 3 strikes laws ARE US laws. Are those laws good and valid or is Natural Law more appropriate? I will go with Natural Law every time.

And now I think I missed your point , I'm not actually sure what we are discussing ?

 

[sloane7777]

I'm only seeing AG's lawyers are expected to file appeal. (Fox4 news)

Amber Guyger’s legal team expected to appeal murder conviction

you are right they reported that the lawyers are preparing to file an appeal , is that something automatically done? or is it by choice here?

 

[Seattle1]

Freedom From Religion Foundation files complaint against judge after giving Bible to Amber Guyger

Oct 4, 2019

The Freedom from Religion Foundation filed a complaint with the Texas State Commission on Judicial Conduct on Thursday, saying it was inappropriate for Kemp to give Guyger the Bible and read a passage from it.

The foundation says government employees “may not use the power and privilege of their offices to preach their personal religious beliefs.”

[...]

Guyger’s defense attorneys gave more context to the moment in a Thursday interview.

“The judge said you got to forgive yourself first and then they talked,” defense attorney Toby Shook said. “Amber said ‘I don’t have my Bible.’ And she said, 'I'll be right back.'” bbm

That’s when Judge Kemp left the court, went to her chambers and returned with her personal Bible to give to Guyger.

“"This is your job for the next month,” Kemp told Guyger. “You read right here: John 3:16."

ETA: @Hraefn

 

[BellaVita]

And now I think I missed your point , I'm not actually sure what we are discussing ?

THIS: You wrote:
IT is a legal issue and legal US law trumps natural law , so yes it was a huge mistake on a judge that should know that !!!
I was trying to say that just because something is US law does not mean it is necessarily just/proper. Because, to my understanding, you said the Judge needed to conform to US law (which I don't think she broke any). My point was that the laws of man/government are often flawed. Like the 3 strikes laws. It is the law but does it violate Natural Law?

 

[Seattle1]

you are right they reported that the lawyers are preparing to file an appeal , is that something automatically done? or is it by choice here?

While it's not an "automatic" - it's not unusual. However, with this case, the defense has to tread lightly...

Another element he said Guyger’s team will have to consider is that her sentence was on the lower end of the five to 99 year window. It’s a roll of the dice to challenge that, but Snipes [former Dallas prosecutor] said there are several different ways the defense could go about presenting their case.

[...]

The paperwork could be filed within the next 60 to 90 days.

The process is lengthy and could take one to two years. Former Dallas County prosecutor Mike Snipes told CBS 11 the case would first go to The Court of Appeals in Dallas. In the event they affirm the conviction, the Court of Criminal Appeals could take the case, but there’s no guarantee.

[...]

“They could try to say the evidence was insufficient to sustain a murder conviction,” Snipes explained. “They could say the evidence that was admitted in the case was more prejudicial than probative.”

As for Guyger, because she was sentenced to 10 years in prison, she’ll have to wait out the process behind bars.

Following The End Of Trial, Next Step For Guyger Could Likely Be Appeal

ETA: If AG's sentence had been one day less than her 10 years, she could have qualified for an appeal bond (i.e., remained out of prison).