GUILTY TX - Former Dallas Police Officer Amber Guyger, indicted for Murder of Botham Shem Jean #8

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  • #581
I understand your view. I appreciate your civil responses. They are well thought out for sure. HOWEVER, I do take issue with the notion of "Freedom FROM Religion" point of view. I don't believe the Founding Fathers of our Nation envisioned that. I lean toward "Freedom OF Religion" and its free expression. So if the Judge had offered a Quran, Torah, etc., I am good with that. I don't believe there were any laws broken here. I suppose there is something to sue for in this America the Offended culture. I just can't understand the rabid outlook of not wanting to see or hear about religion or God in any way, shape or form. Don't get it. And I don't go to church.

I agree with you for the most part but my take on the freedom 'from' religion aspect is that if you have two people A and B and they are of different religions, person A's religion ends where person B's religion begins. So if A doesn't <insert verb here> because they don't like <insert something> about B, but B's religion is pro-<insert something here>, well who gets their preference? I think the 'from' crowd is saying that person B should not be subjected to Person A's religion, and religion shouldn't come into play in a business transaction. In the Judge Kemp case, they think religion shouldn't come into play in the courtroom. I disagree with their panties in a wad in this case because the trial was over. I do think the scene should have played out in the hallway rather than in court, but I was not bothered by it. I generally find it pretty annoying to get religion shoved in my face, but here I've easily moved on.

Freedom 'of 'religion means that Person A can practice Whoop-de-do and Person B can practice La-Ti-Da.

Well, this is my take on the differences.
 
  • #582
I understand your view. I appreciate your civil responses. They are well thought out for sure. HOWEVER, I do take issue with the notion of "Freedom FROM Religion" point of view. I don't believe the Founding Fathers of our Nation envisioned that. I lean toward "Freedom OF Religion" and its free expression. So if the Judge had offered a Quran, Torah, etc., I am good with that. I don't believe there were any laws broken here. I suppose there is something to sue for in this America the Offended culture. I just can't understand the rabid outlook of not wanting to see or hear about religion or God in any way, shape or form. Don't get it. And I don't go to church.

Gotcha ! have you watched Bill Maher's documentary "Religious" its definitely worth a watch, and VERY FUNNY but hes pretty good at explaining how people who don't believe a god exists get bombarded in everyday life with it , I'm an Agnostic ( a militant agnostic, I don't know and damn-it you don't for sure either) who was raised Catholic so my Baptist Husband and I butt heads a lot ( we could not be more opposite 30 years though, hes Black , I'm white , hes a carnivore I am a vegan, hes an accountant , I cant add 2+2) But people who don't believe biggest thing is don't push it on me , that's IMO why they are so rabid! and that's why I think she made a mistake .
 
  • #583
Gotcha ! have you watched Bill Maher's documentary "Religious" its definitely worth a watch, and VERY FUNNY but hes pretty good at explaining how people who don't believe a god exists get bombarded in everyday life with it , I'm an Agnostic ( a militant agnostic, I don't know and damn-it you don't for sure either) who was raised Catholic so my Baptist Husband and I butt heads a lot ( we could not be more opposite 30 years though, hes Black , I'm white , hes a carnivore I am a vegan, hes an accountant , I cant add 2+2) But people who don't believe biggest thing is don't push it on me , that's IMO why they are so rabid! and that's why I think she made a mistake .
Opposites DO attract!!!!!!
 
  • #584
Gotcha ! have you watched Bill Maher's documentary "Religious" its definitely worth a watch, and VERY FUNNY but hes pretty good at explaining how people who don't believe a god exists get bombarded in everyday life with it , I'm an Agnostic ( a militant agnostic, I don't know and damn-it you don't for sure either) who was raised Catholic so my Baptist Husband and I butt heads a lot ( we could not be more opposite 30 years though, hes Black , I'm white , hes a carnivore I am a vegan, hes an accountant , I cant add 2+2) But people who don't believe biggest thing is don't push it on me , that's IMO why they are so rabid! and that's why I think she made a mistake .
Maher can be a total dick but this was a good movie. So spot on, lawdy :rolleyes:
Religulous (2008) - IMDb
 
  • #585
Even so, no matter how it went down don't Church and State have to remain separate? a 3rd party does have the right to contest even if Amber doesn't correct ?

Absolutely on both counts -- 3rd party enjoys freedom of speech, and right to protest. (Ironic that first amendment protects both freedom of speech, and respecting an establishment of religion).

Personally, I don't believe this bible incident would have ever occurred without AG telling judge she did not have her bible. AG instigated religion here.

I also believe it could be argued that trial, conviction, sentencing was over when this event occurred, and Judge not acting in her position to violate separation of church and state.

Just prior to the bible exchange - Judge had already left the bench, jury was dismissed and no longer in courtroom, and Judge was comforting the victims's family -- embracing both mother and father.

(I think I was more troubled by the sheriff's deputy caressing/straightening AG's hair when the guilty verdict was announced in court. That creeped me out)!

MOO
 
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  • #586
I understand your view. I appreciate your civil responses. They are well thought out for sure. HOWEVER, I do take issue with the notion of "Freedom FROM Religion" point of view. I don't believe the Founding Fathers of our Nation envisioned that. I lean toward "Freedom OF Religion" and its free expression. So if the Judge had offered a Quran, Torah, etc., I am good with that. I don't believe there were any laws broken here. I suppose there is something to sue for in this America the Offended culture. I just can't understand the rabid outlook of not wanting to see or hear about religion or God in any way, shape or form. Don't get it. And I don't go to church.


IMO I believe it was unprofessional of the judge to make religious overtures to Guyger and to hug the convicted murderess. However, I would be fooling myself if I didn't know the separation between church and state is a joke even in a court of law. What do the witnesses swear on? I don't see the separation even though I've been told it's in force.
 
  • #587
Great. AG will file an appeal, and get it granted because of being "bullied into Christianity" by the judge, and "bullied" into sexual assault and harrassment by having to consent to a "hug" under duress by Brandt Jean and Judge Tammy.

I hope not. But, who knows?!
 
  • #588
  • #589
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  • #590
upload_2019-10-4_16-57-23.jpeg
They said the police were attempting to write the sequel to a now well-known franchise: In cases involving police and unarmed black men, the dead victims are usually portrayed as suspect or inherently criminal characters, people bound for an early demise.

But experts say the trial illuminates a well-documented truth about American justice. Image — how the victim’s and the defendant’s characters are perceived based on their actions and appearance — is often as important as evidence.

“Botham Jean was a near perfect person of color,” said Benjamin Crump, a lawyer representing Jean’s family in a pending wrongful death suit against Guyger and the City of Dallas. “He was. And this officer, anything but. What this case shows is both how much that mattered and the fundamental problem with that. You shouldn’t have to be a perfect person of color to get justice in America. You really should not.”

In capital cases, it’s not the details of the crime or race of the accused killer that is most predictive of the outcome, said Samuel R. Sommers, a social psychologist and the chair of the psychology department at Tufts University. It’s the race of the victim. Defendants charged with killing white people, particularly women, are more likely to be sentenced to death. Death penalty sentencing disparities are most extreme when black men are accused of raping and murdering white women.

“People like to think of the legal system as a cut and dried thing and the process dominated by cold and dispassionate reason evenly applied,” said Sommers, who studies race, perception and how this shapes application of the law. “But, there’s a human element to the law and anyone who has tried or been to a jury trial can tell you that plays a role as big as — sometimes, perhaps even bigger — than the law.”

Days after the shooting, police officers, police union representatives and people with connections to Guyger also made sure that local reporters became aware of search warrants for Jean’s apartment which indicated that police anticipated they would find drugs inside, Crump said. The search found a small amount of marijuana in Jean’s apartment. But the results of drug and alcohol tests run on Guyger remained out of public view until the trial.

During that same pretrial stretch, Jean’s family sought to tell a more complete storyofwho Jean was and, at times, they shared in great detail the pain caused by the murder of a beloved son, brother and friend. They spoke of Jean, who was 26, using marijuana to treat ADHD.

“I say this with care because so many people’s lives have been turned upside down by the unpunished deaths of people of color after contact with police,” Sommers said. “But there is a certain irony here that what many people perceive as justice in this case also highlights the sort of biased lens applied to a woman who engaged in sexual banter, and a [extramarital] relationship revealing her ‘character,’ being worthy of some kind of moral sanction.”

Police officer convictions after shootings remain exceedingly rare, according to a database maintained by researchers at Bowling Green State University.

“Research has always made it clear that juries like stories,” Sommers said. “The jury uses stories to think through the facts at hand. So, slivers of who these people are, what the jurors think they can tell shape the stories we construct and believe. In a courtroom, the best narrative wins.”

“The prosecutors in this case were willing to do something so many, in so many other cities and cases where black people have died, have just refused to do,” Crump said. “They were willing to rip the halo off of Amber Guyger’s head, [one] that’s just automatically affixed to the heads of police officers, deserved or not.” bbm
Guyger conviction shows how image, notions of character can influence trials
 
  • #591
IMO I believe it was unprofessional of the judge to make religious overtures to Guyger and to hug the convicted murderess. However, I would be fooling myself if I didn't know the separation between church and state is a joke even in a court of law. What do the witnesses swear on? I don't see the separation even though I've been told it's in force.

There was a lot of discussion on the Heather Elvis case is Sidney Moorer. Judge got down and shook his hand and was chitchatting with him after the mistrial AND after conviction for Kidnapping. Men shaking hands, women hugging. Same general idea. The JUDGE going to the DEFENDANT and doing something 'personal'. This is NOT the only case of it. This did bring in the religion BUT, if AG brought it up, and i'm betting she did since Brandts statement was VERY religious, i see NO issue with it. And i'm NOT religious/Christian, i'm pagan.... if I can handle it, i don't see the problem with all the christians that are having issues with it. I bet if she had been given 99 years, they wouldn't be complaining about it. Its just another thing to bring up to further the cause.
 
  • #592
  • #593
Jean's family stood with Dallas activists and religious leaders Friday asking the U.S. Department of Justice to conduct a broad probe of the Dallas Police Department.

"Not knowing the attention it would get, I said what I had to say. I meant what I said, and I thank God I got the courage to say it," Brandt Jean said

Lee Merritt, a lawyer representing the family, said Friday that moments before he took the stand and delivered the hug seen around the world, Brandt Jean said he would have no comment.

"Two minutes later he was in the witness box, speaking his heart, to the person who murdered his brother. It showed incredible bravery, but it wasn't something done for show and I think that's the reason it's connected so well all over the country," Merritt said.
Brandt Jean Didn't Know Cameras Were Rolling on Guyger Hug
 
  • #594
OH NO! What a disappointment :(

I knew that the defense was just stacking points for the appeal. However, the appeal isn't going to overturn anything here.
 
  • #595
There was a lot of discussion on the Heather Elvis case is Sidney Moorer. Judge got down and shook his hand and was chitchatting with him after the mistrial AND after conviction for Kidnapping. Men shaking hands, women hugging. Same general idea. The JUDGE going to the DEFENDANT and doing something 'personal'. This is NOT the only case of it. This did bring in the religion BUT, if AG brought it up, and i'm betting she did since Brandts statement was VERY religious, i see NO issue with it. And i'm NOT religious/Christian, i'm pagan.... if I can handle it, i don't see the problem with all the christians that are having issues with it. I bet if she had been given 99 years, they wouldn't be complaining about it. Its just another thing to bring up to further the cause.
YUP.
 
  • #596
OH NO! What a disappointment :(

Not true.

Not yet -- 60 -90 days if it happens.

I'm only seeing AG's lawyers are expected to file appeal. (Fox4 news)

Amber Guyger’s legal team expected to appeal murder conviction

you are right they reported that the lawyers are preparing to file an appeal , is that something automatically done? or is it by choice here?

ETA: add link for more details

Following The End Of Trial, Next Step For Guyger Could Likely Be Appeal
 
  • #597
  • #598
CBS DFW
The process is lengthy and could take one to two years. Former Dallas County prosecutor Mike Snipes told CBS 11 the case would first go to The Court of Appeals in Dallas. In the event they affirm the conviction, the Court of Criminal Appeals could take the case, but there’s no guarantee.
Anvato Universal Player
“It’s a tough row to hoe for any defendant in the appellate,” Snipes said.
“They could try to say the evidence was insufficient to sustain a murder conviction,” Snipes explained. “They could say the evidence that was admitted in the case was more prejudicial than probative.”

“It’s kind of ironic, she would have been eligible for an appeal bond had she had a sentence of one day less than what she got,” said Snipes.
Following The End Of Trial, Next Step For Guyger Could Likely Be Appeal
 
  • #599
  • #600
Creuzot gave an interview to FOX4 where he briefly spoke about the upcoming trial. The video aired the night before proceedings began and the morning it started.

Defense attorneys for Amber Guyger asked Kemp to declare a mistrial over the interview, but Kemp opted not to after jurors said they hadn’t seen the report or read it on Fox4News.com.

Creuzot will have to explain to Kemp at the hearing why he “should not be held in contempt of this Court” for the interview, which the court said was “in direct violation of this Court’s order restricting publicity in the Amber Guyger case.”

The gag order was enacted by Kemp ahead of the trial. The contempt of court hearing is set for October 31.
Dallas County District Attorney faces hearing for violating gag order before Amber Guyger trial
 
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