TX TX - Julie Moseley, 9, Mary Trlica, 17, Lisa Wilson, 14, Fort Worth, 23 Dec 1974 #8

[pixiepixel]

Does anyone know the current status of this case with Fort Worth PD? Are they actively working on this case, or is it pretty much an afterthought for them?

 

[Brightchaser47]

Does anyone know the current status of this case with Fort Worth PD? Are they actively working on this case, or is it pretty much an afterthought for them?

If you check their cold case/missing persons website, you'll see it's not listed among the cases they're currently working on. Tarrant County's corresponding website lists Rachel and Renee, but not Julie-- possibly because (IIRC) Julie's family had her legally declared dead. If I'm mistaken about any of this, I'll gladly stand corrected.

 

[FWTrioDoc]

This is related but not related so I'm not sure where to post this. There has been some discussion on some past threads related to Robin Carter. There is an anecdotal story that Robin's older brother saw Robin come home with a (hunting?) knife covered in blood. Allegedly Pat brought this information to his father. Nothing actionable was ever done with the information. Pat Carter was involved in a hit and run and was completely physically and mentally incapacitated for the rest of his life. George worked in law enforcement for a long time and then was a reserve or volunteer officer with Fort Worth PD for another long stretch after his official career was over. There is no law enforcement report anywhere for any north texas LE related to that hit and run. It seems odd to me to have a parent involved in LE to the extent George Carter was involved and your son is horribly injured in a hit and run accident and you are not doing everything possible to bring the full force of LE in to investigate and close that case for someone that did something like that to his child. If I'm wrong, please let me know and please provide documentation if possible, but I'd like to know if anyone has any further information on that accident, when it occurred, where, any details, if there was any further follow up, etc. It had to have happened after Pat allegedly mentioned the knife to his father. So, how long after. BTW, keep in mind Robin later ran down a school teacher with his truck. It's a miracle she did not end up in the same state as Pat Carter.

 

[Brightchaser47]

I have often wondered about LE involvement, also, but I can't figure how the 'Runaway' letter fits into this scenario (as I believe it was written by someone close to Rachel).

I also believe the letter was written by someone close to Rachel. Consider the possibility that part of the letter was actually a note written by DA years earlier and Rachel was the original recipient. Rachel wasn't known to run away, but her sister was. She probably wasn't alone on those little trips...I can easily picture this being written by a teen to her younger sister prior to such an escapade--
" I know I'm going to catch it, but we just had to get away. We're going to Houston. See you in about a week."
Recycling and editing this "letter" may have been a desperate attempt by DA (and possibly TT) to cover up the fact that corrupt LE and the family business were involved in the trio's disappearance. Remember, the FBI handwriting analysis was reportedly "inconclusive". Quite possibly Rachel's handwriting was very similar to a younger DA's. That's not uncommon among close relatives. Just speculation and jmo.

 

[Brightchaser47]

This is related but not related so I'm not sure where to post this. There has been some discussion on some past threads related to Robin Carter. There is an anecdotal story that Robin's older brother saw Robin come home with a (hunting?) knife covered in blood. Allegedly Pat brought this information to his father. Nothing actionable was ever done with the information. Pat Carter was involved in a hit and run and was completely physically and mentally incapacitated for the rest of his life. George worked in law enforcement for a long time and then was a reserve or volunteer officer with Fort Worth PD for another long stretch after his official career was over. There is no law enforcement report anywhere for any north texas LE related to that hit and run. It seems odd to me to have a parent involved in LE to the extent George Carter was involved and your son is horribly injured in a hit and run accident and you are not doing everything possible to bring the full force of LE in to investigate and close that case for someone that did something like that to his child. If I'm wrong, please let me know and please provide documentation if possible, but I'd like to know if anyone has any further information on that accident, when it occurred, where, any details, if there was any further follow up, etc. It had to have happened after Pat allegedly mentioned the knife to his father. So, how long after. BTW, keep in mind Robin later ran down a school teacher with his truck. It's a miracle she did not end up in the same state as Pat Carter.

I don't know details, but I believe RC capable of anything. Sadly, I feel Dad was willing to cover for him....jmo

 

[tilomagnet]

I also believe the letter was written by someone close to Rachel. Consider the possibility that part of the letter was actually a note written by DA years earlier and Rachel was the original recipient. Rachel wasn't known to run away, but her sister was. She probably wasn't alone on those little trips...I can easily picture this being written by a teen to her younger sister prior to such an escapade--
" I know I'm going to catch it, but we just had to get away. We're going to Houston. See you in about a week."
Recycling and editing this "letter" may have been a desperate attempt by DA (and possibly TT) to cover up the fact that corrupt LE and the family business were involved in the trio's disappearance. Remember, the FBI handwriting analysis was reportedly "inconclusive". Quite possibly Rachel's handwriting was very similar to a younger DA's. That's not uncommon among close relatives. Just speculation and jmo.

Why would DA and TT need to recycle an old letter if DA was available anyway to write a new one from scratch with whatever content they saw fit? The recycling theory only makes sense if they had used a genuine letter by Rachel.

 

[Brightchaser47]

Why would DA and TT need to recycle an old letter if DA was available anyway to write a new one from scratch with whatever content they saw fit?

RSBM
Because the letter needed to look and sound like a teen runaway wrote it. Our handwriting style and mechanics often change as we mature. DA was a few years older; maybe her writing at that point wouldn't be as convincing....

The recycling theory only makes sense if they had used a genuine letter by Rachel.

But this situation called for a "runaway" letter, and apparently Rachel hadn't written one. So they had to find the next best thing....
Again, just a thought and jmo.

 

[FWTrioDoc]

I also believe the letter was written by someone close to Rachel. Consider the possibility that part of the letter was actually a note written by DA years earlier and Rachel was the original recipient. Rachel wasn't known to run away, but her sister was. She probably wasn't alone on those little trips...I can easily picture this being written by a teen to her younger sister prior to such an escapade--
" I know I'm going to catch it, but we just had to get away. We're going to Houston. See you in about a week."
Recycling and editing this "letter" may have been a desperate attempt by DA (and possibly TT) to cover up the fact that corrupt LE and the family business were involved in the trio's disappearance. Remember, the FBI handwriting analysis was reportedly "inconclusive". Quite possibly Rachel's handwriting was very similar to a younger DA's. That's not uncommon among close relatives. Just speculation and jmo.

I'll just throw this out there to mull over. There was a person at the house that was a guest of one of the occupants at the house from Houston the morning the girls went missing. Someone that came up specifically to see that occupant. Was there a thought that maybe, instead of spending xmas with the family, it might be more fun to get away to Houston for the holiday week but things went awry when the girls went missing and plans changed? I don't know and I have NO facts to support my assertion of this motivation. It's 100% a version of a story that could make sense in one of the infinite possibilities out there of what happened that morning and where the letter came from. I could probably make the case for 100 other alternatives that I could defend equally as well or better. It's just something I consider sometimes as one possibility.

 

[Brightchaser47]

I'll just throw this out there to mull over. There was a person at the house that was a guest of one of the occupants at the house from Houston the morning the girls went missing. Someone that came up specifically to see that occupant. Was there a thought that maybe, instead of spending xmas with the family, it might be more fun to get away to Houston for the holiday week but things went awry when the girls went missing and plans changed? I don't know and I have NO facts to support my assertion of this motivation. It's 100% a version of a story that could make sense in one of the infinite possibilities out there of what happened that morning and where the letter came from. I could probably make the case for 100 other alternatives that I could defend equally as well or better. It's just something I consider sometimes as one possibility.

I would consider this possibility except that that same occupant claimed to have forgotten the visitor was coming....js

 

[T rex]

Chypre, Yes, the story you're referring to is discussed by Rusty Arnold in the Fort Worth Memories Live Stream. Here's the key information:

Rusty recounts that Jeff Burns, a diver, was approached by someone in a bar who talked about the case involving the girls and a mattress. I believe they cut out the bloody part of the mattress and also took some ropes that could have been used as restraints and took that all to FWPD and that reignited some interest in looking at Billy Simpson again. I don't believe it is ever specified who's property or trailer it was. According to Rusty:

Did RA say in that live stream that he and Julie once dated? I'm sure I heard him say that and I don't know why the things that he says still shock me sometimes. Of course I don't believe it but there is probably some truth in just about everything he says. It could be an indication that he knew Julie in order for him to say something like this. When I consider the above and a few other such things like the account from ST about seeing the girls at Minot that day, which I also do not believe is accurate but very well could have been another day, and the fact that DA lived in Renee's grandmothers house just across from the M's it seems to me these families may have knew each other much better than we have been led to believe.

 

[Brightchaser47]

It could be an indication that he knew Julie in order for him to say something like this. When I consider the above and a few other such things like the account from ST about seeing the girls at Minot that day, which I also do not believe is accurate but very well could have been another day, and the fact that DA lived in Renee's grandmothers house just across from the M's it seems to me these families may have knew each other much better than we have been led to believe.

RSBM
Absolutely... to all the above. jmo

 

[Pricklykitty]

Did RA say in that live stream that he and Julie once dated? I'm sure I heard him say that and I don't know why the things that he says still shock me sometimes. Of course I don't believe it but there is probably some truth in just about everything he says. It could be an indication that he knew Julie in order for him to say something like this. When I consider the above and a few other such things like the account from ST about seeing the girls at Minot that day, which I also do not believe is accurate but very well could have been another day, and the fact that DA lived in Renee's grandmothers house just across from the M's it seems to me these families may have knew each other much better than we have been led to believe.

I have to agree with you that the families and other people ( vb for example) were for more connected than we are lead to believe. Which in turn has me questioning why they don't want people to know that or look in that direction. Just my opinion but it feels like so much was kept secret, or facts changed and twisted over the years in order to protect those still around, that the truth of what happened to the girls not only stood little chance of coming out, but became secondary to people looking after their own interests. Not saying everyone connected acted/acts this way, but some for sure - again jmo

 

[FWTrioDoc]

I want to float a theory and want you guys to tear it apart, poke holes, etc. What if the person responsible was very near to where some of the girls lived? What is that person to have done some pretty rough things in the past and maybe in the present but you overlook it because they are your neighbor and "just don't seem like the kind of person that could do something like that." But they are familiar to the girls and the things going on in the lives of some of the families from proximity and time spent? And then what if that person was involved in some significant way. It would easy to lure girls into a car because this person is know and we've known him all our lives.

After the girls disappear, what if that person who likely had work, hobby and living proximity made it no secret of being involved and in fact threatened surviving family members and people close and told them what the person would do if anyone talked. It wouldn't just be the person that talked that would be dealt with, it would be family members, friends, etc. And if this person was known to have killed and disposed of before, what's to say that people ran and other started acting fishy, messing up timelines and clamming up because they were afraid to talk. They were afraid for their lives and it was real imminent danger both closely and with a network that could make bad things happen?. What if every action was governed by the fear of losing a spouse, another child, a friend, a neighbor, etc.?

Does that explain motivations? Does that capture enough data points? Is it viable?

Again, poke holes and tear it apart.

 

[Pricklykitty]

I want to float a theory and want you guys to tear it apart, poke holes, etc. What if the person responsible was very near to where some of the girls lived? What is that person to have done some pretty rough things in the past and maybe in the present but you overlook it because they are your neighbor and "just don't seem like the kind of person that could do something like that." But they are familiar to the girls and the things going on in the lives of some of the families from proximity and time spent? And then what if that person was involved in some significant way. It would easy to lure girls into a car because this person is know and we've known him all our lives.

After the girls disappear, what if that person who likely had work, hobby and living proximity made it no secret of being involved and in fact threatened surviving family members and people close and told them what the person would do if anyone talked. It wouldn't just be the person that talked that would be dealt with, it would be family members, friends, etc. And if this person was known to have killed and disposed of before, what's to say that people ran and other started acting fishy, messing up timelines and clamming up because they were afraid to talk. They were afraid for their lives and it was real imminent danger both closely and with a network that could make bad things happen?. What if every action was governed by the fear of losing a spouse, another child, a friend, a neighbor, etc.?

Does that explain motivations? Does that capture enough data points? Is it viable?

Again, poke holes and tear it apart.

I'd like to poke holes and tear it apart, however I think you are on the right track honestly. I do think it was someone or people known to the girls and families in some capacity, and I do think threats and intimidation played a part in keeping people from speaking out. I also think the changing narratives and misdirection, the denials of closer connections between the families, and all the missing pieces which should be easy to fill in, are down to those close to the girls protecting themselves first and foremost. I also feel there must be a perceived credible threat to this day that still prevents people speaking up, and this contributes to all the mess of information we have still today.

 

[jetsfanjohn]

I want to float a theory and want you guys to tear it apart, poke holes, etc. What if the person responsible was very near to where some of the girls lived? What is that person to have done some pretty rough things in the past and maybe in the present but you overlook it because they are your neighbor and "just don't seem like the kind of person that could do something like that." But they are familiar to the girls and the things going on in the lives of some of the families from proximity and time spent? And then what if that person was involved in some significant way. It would easy to lure girls into a car because this person is know and we've known him all our lives.

After the girls disappear, what if that person who likely had work, hobby and living proximity made it no secret of being involved and in fact threatened surviving family members and people close and told them what the person would do if anyone talked. It wouldn't just be the person that talked that would be dealt with, it would be family members, friends, etc. And if this person was known to have killed and disposed of before, what's to say that people ran and other started acting fishy, messing up timelines and clamming up because they were afraid to talk. They were afraid for their lives and it was real imminent danger both closely and with a network that could make bad things happen?. What if every action was governed by the fear of losing a spouse, another child, a friend, a neighbor, etc.?

Does that explain motivations? Does that capture enough data points? Is it viable?

Again, poke holes and tear it apart.

What puts me off the idea of a rogue neighbour or indeed a random stranger being responsible for the girls' disappearance is the 'runaway' letter. I am of the opinion that the envelope went through the post (and was repurposed), but the letter never did.

It has been mentioned before on previous threads, that the letter was originally given to the Police, but without the envelope. If true, that is a huge red flag !!

 

[FWTrioDoc]

What puts me off the idea of a rogue neighbour or indeed a random stranger being responsible for the girls' disappearance is the 'runaway' letter. I am of the opinion that the envelope went through the post (and was repurposed), but the letter never did.

It has been mentioned before on previous threads, that the letter was originally given to the Police, but without the envelope. If true, that is a huge red flag !!

@jetsfanjohn I'd like to hear more. I don't disagree with your assessment of the letter but I'm curious as to why you think that precludes a neighbor. In this version of this particular theory that I'm researching (trying to stay open to as many ideas as possible) the idea of a stranger or random killer doesn't make sense to me simply because people unconnected to victims rarely spend time hiding bodies because the chance of association was so low, particularly in the pre DNA era (according to Ann Burgess). The fact that the bodies were never found, using the Burgess theory, would push me towards someone closer or know and that could, possibly include a neighbor. However, your viewpoint says something different and I'd like to hear the why. It's easy for me to get locked in and miss alternate viewpoints and the why behind them and it sounds to me like you've thought this out and that I'm missing something in the way I'm looking at things. Thank you for your input and love to hear your thoughts.

 

[Valiant]

I think the letter could be convenient if it were a neighbor. The letter would shift attention away from the neighborhood, as would the car relocated to the mall. it's possible the letter came in a different envelope, maybe not even postmarked, and the wrong envelope was provided to the police in the confusion after the event.
I do agree there appears to be something, perhaps from questionable business practices, that the families. especially the A's, are trying to keep hidden.

 

[jetsfanjohn]

@jetsfanjohn I'd like to hear more. I don't disagree with your assessment of the letter but I'm curious as to why you think that precludes a neighbor. In this version of this particular theory that I'm researching (trying to stay open to as many ideas as possible) the idea of a stranger or random killer doesn't make sense to me simply because people unconnected to victims rarely spend time hiding bodies because the chance of association was so low, particularly in the pre DNA era (according to Ann Burgess). The fact that the bodies were never found, using the Burgess theory, would push me towards someone closer or know and that could, possibly include a neighbor. However, your viewpoint says something different and I'd like to hear the why. It's easy for me to get locked in and miss alternate viewpoints and the why behind them and it sounds to me like you've thought this out and that I'm missing something in the way I'm looking at things. Thank you for your input and love to hear your thoughts.

I had a listen to the 'Nancy Grace' podcast on this case.

Richard Wilson (Renee's father) stated in the podcast that FWPD told him they knew who the killer was, but no matter how many polygraphs they gave him, he would pass, as he was a psychopath !! JMO, but I don't believe this person was a neighbour.

 

[Valiant]

I had a listen to the 'Nancy Grace' podcast on this case.

Richard Wilson (Renee's father) stated in the podcast that FWPD told him they knew who the killer was, but no matter how many polygraphs they gave him, he would pass, as he was a psychopath !! JMO, but I don't believe this person was a neighbour.

The polygraph statement really means nothing. Polygraphs aren't evidence that can be used in court. If the police really knew they should be uncovering evidence not making excuses about the suspect passing a polygraph.
You can completely fail a polygraph and it can never be mentioned at trial.

 

[Brightchaser47]

I do agree there appears to be something, perhaps from questionable business practices, that the families. especially the A's, are trying to keep hidden.

RSBM
I'd thought questionable business practices, too. But to still be misdirecting 50+ years later! There has to be knowledge, complicity,  something more at play than just questionable business practices. Now if the business were used as a front for something involving minors....that's a different story. jmo