TX - 'Lori Ruff', Longview, WhtFem UP9863, *General Discussion and Theories* #4

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My impression (FWIW) is that our mystery woman obtained it in person. If you look at the photo of BST's birth certificate (#45 in the "Photos only *NO DISCUSSION*" thread -- which ClaireNC posted), there is no indication that it was mailed to anyone. The receipt simply shows it was paid for by check, which means it is possible that the person who paid for the certificate could be identified.

This detail likely raised agent Velling's hopes -- it's a top quality lead to LEK's birth name -- only to be disappointed. These records are only kept for so long -- say 7 or 10 years -- before the county (or their bank) discards them. I'm assuming that was the result of his investigation, & why at one point he lamented "too much time had passed" in this case.

As a last point, having done everything correctly to erase her birth identity I'm surprised LEK made this simple mistake by paying for this document with a check -- which can be traced -- instead of cash. (Cash was used a lot more in those days than now, & wouldn't have raised any suspicions.) Had her imposture been suspected much sooner, she would have been easily identified from this alone. Maybe this is why agent Velling suspected LEK used an identity broker.

It was either in the Seattle Times article or the Velling interview where it was said the birth certificate was mailed to the P.O.Box. If you look at the dates on the receipt and on the paper with it, the dates are three days apart. I doubt she stood at the counter for three days. We have also had previous discussions that the notation of a check could be in reference to a money order which is also anonymous.
 
https://www.theupsstore.com/mailboxes/personal-mailboxes
View attachment 91702

drop boxes are mailboxes, to put it into context in FLEK's case, it was probably something like what you would see at a UPS where they don't use a PO Box address, instead they use an actual street address, so you can pick a UPS or Mailboxes etc. store in any neighbourhood you'd like and that is the address that is used. No P.O. Box.

https://www.theupsstore.com/mailboxes/personal-mailboxes

I have seen some articles refer to FLEK's box as a p.o. Box and some articles refer to it as a Drop box or mail box. I think we are tearing apart the media's literary license. IIRC, Velling referenced it as a P O box.
 
I have seen some articles refer to FLEK's box as a p.o. Box and some articles refer to it as a Drop box or mail box. I think we are tearing apart the media's literary license. IIRC, Velling referenced it as a P O box.


The Seattle article says "She also kept a mail drop in Boulder City, Nev., which forwarded her mail to Dallas." If I can find the chat transcript again, I'll look and see if Velling said anything else about it.
 
I'm looking for the photos only thread because I'm re-thinking what I said about the dates on the receipt.
 
It looks to me like the birth certificate was certified on May 20, 1988 and the receipt is dated May 23, 1988. I can see two scenarios. One, she could have called to order the birth certificate and the clerk certified it and said when I receive a check I will mail it. OR two, she called and ordered it and picked it up three days later. But somehow Velling knew about the po box/ mail drop. How then?
 
I have seen some articles refer to FLEK's box as a p.o. Box and some articles refer to it as a Drop box or mail box. I think we are tearing apart the media's literary license. IIRC, Velling referenced it as a P O box.

Actually, in FLEK's case, the differences are very important. Another poster provided a link with the description of a commercial mail receiving agency (CMRA). Having something delivered to a P.O. Box is very different than having mail or items sent to a CMRA such as UPS or Mailboxes Etc., etc. In the 80s and 90s it's likely there would have been an even bigger difference between the two, especially if a person wanted to have items forwarded from one place to another, to another such as FLEK might have done.
 
Actually, in FLEK's case, the differences are very important. Another poster provided a link with the description of a commercial mail receiving agency (CMRA). Having something delivered to a P.O. Box is very different than having mail or items sent to a CMRA such as UPS or Mailboxes Etc., etc. In the 80s and 90s it's likely there would have been an even bigger difference between the two, especially if a person wanted to have items forwarded from one place to another, to another such as FLEK might have done.

I agree that it matters, I just don't know that we really know which one it was. In the interview of Velling, he is asked a question about it and one person said mail drop and the other said p o box and he did not clarify. I am also putting that link here because he also clarifies that they don't know HOW she got the birth certificate, just that it and the receipt were in FLEK's STRONGBOX.

SO, I guess we don't know how he found out about the Boulder City place. I assume he checked U.S. Post Office records?

http://live.seattletimes.com/Event/Live_chat_with_investigator_reporter_about_Jane_Doe_case?Page=1
 
Actually, in FLEK's case, the differences are very important. Another poster provided a link with the description of a commercial mail receiving agency (CMRA). Having something delivered to a P.O. Box is very different than having mail or items sent to a CMRA such as UPS or Mailboxes Etc., etc. In the 80s and 90s it's likely there would have been an even bigger difference between the two, especially if a person wanted to have items forwarded from one place to another, to another such as FLEK might have done.

Mail forwarding service is not always nefarious.

People who travel a good deal in RVs use these services. Mail from the summer address is forwarded to the mail service office, and then later the mail service sends the accumulated mail to the RVer once they are parked long enough to receive mail. Probably less of this with on-line billing & bill pay today.

This mail drop/drop box/PO box could be a mailing service like this, holding FLEK's mail until she called with a receiving address. That address could be a work address or someone willing to accept her mail.

http://www.beesmailservice.com/

Since 1976? Wonder what kinda records Bee keeps???
 
I definitely think other people were involved. In my opinion it doesn't seem reasonable for a young woman to be able to pull off something so intricate like this on her own just from reading a book. Last night I was reading a few articles about Faye Yager who ran the "children of the underground" starting in the 80s, right around the time LEK emerged as BST. Since Yager mainly helped parents fleeing with their children to escape abuse, I don't think LEK necessarily had help from Yager's organization, but after reading up on Yager's operations there are way too many similarities to LEK's actions for me to think that she didn't have help.

From http://dartcenter.org/content/children-underground?section=all






From http://www.goupstate.com/article/19890917/news/909170331

So, giving SS1988 the assumption of being a truthful person, what if LEK was involved with an organization like this? Perhaps the timing of the running away/identity change was at a time when the mother knew she was dying and that is what spurred her to get her daughter away from the situation. A mother might be motivated to actually flee a situation if she knew she wouldn't be around to protect her daughter from it in the future. A lot of mothers in abusive situations are in a position where they feel it is too dangerous to leave, and they think that as long as they are between the abuser and the child, they are protecting their child.
If a mother knew she wouldn't survive more than a year or two it would make sense to only go through the process of identity change for the daughter.
As much as I am hung up on Cynthia Perry, I am also going to start looking at missing mother/daughters from the south-west US.
It really adds up with all of the attorney information, the thoroughness of the identity change, and the random scrawling on the notes page, maybe some of that was her mothers handwriting. If that is all she had to remember her, it would make sense to keep it. Also, the lawyers and anyone else involved- like Jeung, wouldn't say if they knew who she was. I have a second hand contact to Flora Jessop, who is involved in removing people from the FLDS. My understanding of people doing that kind of work is they are a vault. If they have helped you and you are not public about it they will act like they don't even know you.
Unfortunately, at that time and in an FLDS kind of group, there might not be formal records of who LEK or her mother were before they ran, and family tree's are such a tangled mess.
 
The more I read about Faye Yager's methods of hiding 'protective parents', it sounds like textbook FLEK.... minus any visible presence of a child. Maybe FLEK did have a child left in a safe spot? I am not too confident of that theory, but everything else is like, Wow! Faye Yager instructed her people to never stay in spots too long, used networks of 'safe houses', instructions and documentation on recreating IDs, staging false sightings of missing persons through satellite credit card usages and paper trails, she also schooled them on altering their appearances (Kathy Jung?) to avoid discovery. If FLEK was not a fleeing mother, then..... maybe she was the child of one? Maybe she witnessed someone who was fleeing, or providing escape resources (safe homes, lawyers, ministers, etc) and learned by proxy how to re-invent herself.

However..... if any of this is true, I would assume that those involved would take the knowledge to their graves to protect others and to limit their culpability. For example, let's hypothetically assume that the address in Boise was a 'safe house'. If they admit to helping FLEK, then they could compromise what the believed they were helping FLEK to escape..... along with any of her past or present family members. Also, they could compromise the safety of other escapees whom they assisted through the years. But this theory could be true with all the other puzzle pieces in lawyers, hair dressers, phone numbers, etc.

I would almost think of looking into the nearest church which FLEK attended when she surfaced in Dallas in 1988. They may have had clues to her 1988 'refugee status'.

However..... I would almost assume that if her safety was of such significance to her, she would not have held onto such notes to endanger her potential discovery.
 
Lmao!!! Exactly! I was posting almost the identical thing. :) We might be onto something here Beezneez!
 
Herstory- that is an interesting link. I found this with a quick google of Faye Yager- involved in disappearing a woman in Dallas in the 90's.

http://www.dallasobserver.com/news/alicia-comes-home-part-i-6403776
http://www.dallasobserver.com/news/alicia-comes-home-part-ii-6398218
While it seems that Yager is pretty chatty about the people she has disappeared, I would bet that there are some that she doesn't talk about.
* This article says Faye started her work in early 1988. It is from March, 1989 and states that she had already assisted hundreds.
http://articles.latimes.com/1989-03-12/news/vw-1219_1_abused-children
 
I have been researching her quite thoroughly since last night. The bummer is that she is known to admit involvement in even those she wasn't to blur the lines of her undergrounders. 1988 would have been the infancy stage of Yager's career however and her initial involvement seem to strictly involve parental molestation cases. It doesn't mean that some other network schooled and assisted FLEK, however. Another article stated that women's abuse shelters appeared to be the portals between alleged victims and these underground networkers.
 
Anywhere in all the threads, is there a basic summary of what is known about FLEK? You guys are discussing lawyers and others who have involvement with FLEK, but claim to not know her original identity. This is all new and exciting info, but due to time constraints, I am not able to sift through all the threads to find what has been discovered over the years. If anyone could hook me up with a recap of what's been found out, that'd be awesome. Thank you.
 
Start by reading the Seattle article. You can google it.


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Anywhere in all the threads, is there a basic summary of what is known about FLEK? You guys are discussing lawyers and others who have involvement with FLEK, but claim to not know her original identity. This is all new and exciting info, but due to time constraints, I am not able to sift through all the threads to find what has been discovered over the years. If anyone could hook me up with a recap of what's been found out, that'd be awesome. Thank you.

The Timeline/Media and Photo threads are a good place to start.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?215578-Timeline-and-Media-Thread-*NO-DISCUSSION*
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?215655-Photos-Only-*NO-DISCUSSION*
 
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