Found Deceased TX - PFC Vanessa Guillen, 20, Fort Hood military base, items left behind, 22 Apr 2020 *arrests* #3

[m00c0w]

MOO there is only one meaning to "present and accounted for."

I've been an NCO longer than most people have been in the military. That attitude creates toxic environments and I would not want to serve under that type of leadership.

 

[Boxer]

I've been an NCO longer than most people have been in the military. That attitude creates toxic environments and I would not want to serve under that type of leadership.

Just clarifying. A formation is held at 3pm.
A soldier not present is marked present.
That's ok.

 

[Cryptic]

What?! He was a suspect right away? We know now that he was seen loading a heavy box into his vehicle THAT NIGHT. And it was his phone and his girlfriend's phone that led them to the body. What, pray tell, did they do for 10 weeks?

They probably did what police do in democratic countries- investigate methodically while under a constitutional framework.

US servicemen under suspicion of serious crimes have near identical rights* as civilians under suspiscion of serious crimes. They cant be ordered to self incriminate, warrants are needed, and guilt must be established beyond a reasonable doubt.

In this case, Robinson having a less than pleasant personality, Robinson seen loading a commonly used container into his car, nor Robinson probably having a less than fully convincing- but still very possible explanation for what was in that container equates to "guilty beyond a reasonable doubt".

Likewise, there is a very ingrained preference in the United States that murder charges must be supported by a body. For better or for worse, exceptions to this are few and far between.

* As a side note, military personnel do not have Habeus Corpus rights that civilians do. This means that the can be arrested pre-emptively and detained while being investigated. But.... a lot of military commanders and CID nvestigators give Habeus Corpus protections even when they dont technically need to out of an abundance of Constitutional caution.

 

[Beltonian]

Investigation is ongoing.
Our opinion and strictly OOO is that Vanessa found some discrepancy in a arms paperwork and confronted him. He was stealing most likely ( it happens all the time and lower rank soldiers are getting involved out of a pressure of retaliation from they superiors so they do what they were ordered to do), he knew she might expose him. So he says something like - Hey, Vanessa, come over to my arms room and we will go over all the paperwork and you will see that everything matches. She says - sure. He has the ax and empty pelican box conveniently ready...
Does not mean he did not harass her before, he could. But that particular horrible day - it wasn't about crime of passion or rejected advance. It was purely business...

 

[MsBetsy]

Investigation is ongoing.
Our opinion and strictly OOO is that Vanessa found some discrepancy in a arms paperwork and confronted him. He was stealing most likely ( it happens all the time and lower rank soldiers are getting involved out of a pressure of retaliation from they superiors so they do what they were ordered to do), he knew she might expose him. So he says something like - Hey, Vanessa, come over to my arms room and we will go over all the paperwork and you will see that everything matches. She says - sure. He has the ax and empty pelican box conveniently ready...
Does not mean he did not harass her before, he could. But that particular horrible day - it wasn't about crime of passion or rejected advance. It was purely business...

Well, they did say that investigators are finding out more "facts" each time they speak to Agulair.

She may have lied about Vanessa threatening to report him for adultery. Maybe she had a reason for lying because she didn't want to incriminate herself. She did seem to have an obsession for guns.

Does anybody remember when the picture of her pointing the bigger gun towards the camera was posted on facebook? I don't know anything about different types of weapons but I do wonder where she got it from.

 

[m00c0w]

Just clarifying. A formation is held at 3pm.
A soldier not present is marked present.
That's ok.

There is a human element to leadership, yes. As I said, 99.9% of the time, the otherwise-good soldier is in the bathroom, or lost track of time, or whatever. They get the benefit of the doubt without being reported UA, which can cause a massive amount of trouble for that soldier. They're not in a combat zone. They're not in the field. The chances of them being brutally murdered in the middle of the day was next to zero, and her being reported unaccounted for wouldn't change this - and as I said before, they likely still would not have found her because of the location. Once it became apparent she was not just benignly absent for formation, they started looking for her. They then reported it to CID the next day and an official investigation was started. None of this is bizarre to me.

 

[m00c0w]

Investigation is ongoing.
Our opinion and strictly OOO is that Vanessa found some discrepancy in a arms paperwork and confronted him. He was stealing most likely ( it happens all the time and lower rank soldiers are getting involved out of a pressure of retaliation from they superiors so they do what they were ordered to do), he knew she might expose him. So he says something like - Hey, Vanessa, come over to my arms room and we will go over all the paperwork and you will see that everything matches. She says - sure. He has the ax and empty pelican box conveniently ready...
Does not mean he did not harass her before, he could. But that particular horrible day - it wasn't about crime of passion or rejected advance. It was purely business...

She was an armorer for a different company. She wouldn't be conducting inventory of his weapons, and he wouldn't have access to her weapons. He is also not the only one conducting inventories of weapons; usually there needs to be two people present and every few weeks a supervisor is the one doing the inventory. It is extremely hard to get away with something like that undetected (and the person that detects it wouldn't be an armorer from a different company, it would be their own leadership). I think this scenario is highly unlikely.

 

[m00c0w]

They probably did what police do in democratic countries- investigate methodically while under a constitutional framework.

US servicemen under suspicion of serious crimes have near identical rights* as civilians under suspiscion of serious crimes. They cant be ordered to self incriminate, warrants are needed, and guilt must be established beyond a reasonable doubt.

In this case, Robinson having a less than pleasant personality, Robinson seen loading a commonly used container into his car, nor Robinson probably having a less than fully convincing- but still very possible explanation for what was in that container equates to "guilty beyond a reasonable doubt".

Likewise, there is a very ingrained preference in the United States that murder charges must be supported by a body. For better or for worse, exceptions to this are few and far between.

* As a side note, military personnel do not have Habeus Corpus rights that civilians do. This means that the can be arrested pre-emptively and detained while being investigated. But.... a lot of military commanders and CID nvestigators give Habeus Corpus protections even when they dont technically need to out of an abundance of Constitutional caution.

Thank you.

 

[Boxer]

I've been an NCO longer than most people have been in the military. That attitude creates toxic environments and I would not want to serve under that type of leadership.

There is a human element to leadership, yes. As I said, 99.9% of the time, the otherwise-good soldier is in the bathroom, or lost track of time, or whatever. They get the benefit of the doubt without being reported UA, which can cause a massive amount of trouble for that soldier. They're not in a combat zone. They're not in the field. The chances of them being brutally murdered in the middle of the day was next to zero, and her being reported unaccounted for wouldn't change this - and as I said before, they likely still would not have found her because of the location. Once it became apparent she was not just benignly absent for formation, they started looking for her. They then reported it to CID the next day and an official investigation was started. None of this is bizarre to me.

Counting a soldier present when not present is no big deal for the NCO who marks the soldier present? Tax payers don't pay for individual NCOs to decide something like that. Small falsehoods grow into large corruptions.


VGs murder was a come as you are party for Ft. Hood. A snap inspection.

 

[Al Hoffman]

Investigation is ongoing.
Our opinion and strictly OOO is that Vanessa found some discrepancy in a arms paperwork and confronted him. He was stealing most likely ( it happens all the time and lower rank soldiers are getting involved out of a pressure of retaliation from they superiors so they do what they were ordered to do), he knew she might expose him. So he says something like - Hey, Vanessa, come over to my arms room and we will go over all the paperwork and you will see that everything matches. She says - sure. He has the ax and empty pelican box conveniently ready...
Does not mean he did not harass her before, he could. But that particular horrible day - it wasn't about crime of passion or rejected advance. It was purely business...

I agree with you. I said on this thread, before her body was found, that if you wanted to find her killer, tear that armory apart and inventory it. Follow the money. She was doing an inventory and looking at serial numbers on the day of her death. I agree with you, she may have stumbled on to something that got her killed. Her death sounds like a crime of passion. He destroyed her face with a hammer. He was very angry about something! If the leadership on Fort Hood is covering up any thing, or keeping it from the public, it would be thefts from the armory.

 

[Al Hoffman]

Apparently there is more outside review of Fort Hood' s and the Army's conduct in the investigation of this murder.

Independent Probe Called into Fort Hood Soldier Vanessa Guillen’s Death Says Army

 

[Boxer]

I agree with you. I said on this thread, before her body was found, that if you wanted to find her killer, tear that armory apart and inventory it. Follow the money. She was doing an inventory and looking at serial numbers on the day of her death. I agree with you, she may have stumbled on to something that got her killed. Her death sounds like a crime of passion. He destroyed her face with a hammer. He was very angry about something! If the leadership on Fort Hood is covering up any thing, or keeping it from the public, it would be thefts from the armory.

Either or both motivations totally possible.
MOO from the beginning I thought this might be about weapons theft since she disappeared while on duty.
Criminal behaviors keep company with each other so the proof is in the pudding

Even if no weapons were missing from AR armory a forensic analysis of the specific machine gun might have turned up car trunk carpet or blanket fibers or someone's unauthorized fingerprints on the weapon due to being taken off post and then returned.
One of VGs jobs within the armory was inventory. The ostensible reason given for her to go to the armory Robinson worked in, was to deliver a work order for servicing a .50 caliber machine gun.

 

[PatLaurel]

Does anybody remember when the picture of her pointing the bigger gun towards the camera was posted on facebook? I don't know anything about different types of weapons but I do wonder where she got it from.

SBM

January 25, 2020.

And the Gun is Made in Brazil. Brand Taurus Armas TMS42436 (model/serial number?) G2c 9mm.

Taurus (manufacturer) - Wikipedia
Taurus Armas

ETA: The assault rifle was posted January 22 with the hashtag 2 amendment.

 

[MsBetsy]

SBM

January 25, 2020.

And the Gun is Made in Brazil. Brand Taurus Armas TMS42436 (model/serial number?) G2c 9mm.

Taurus (manufacturer) - Wikipedia
Taurus Armas

ETA: The assault rifle was posted January 22 with the hashtag 2 amendment.

Thanks. That must be the smaller blue and white handgun. I thought it was fake when I first saw the picture because it looked a little like my nephew's airgun.

 

[Cryptic]

Counting a soldier present when not present is no big deal for the NCO who marks the soldier present? Tax payers don't pay for individual NCOs to decide something like that. Small falsehoods grow into large corruptions.

Taxpayers also don't pay for NCOs to become robots either. Rather, NCOs need to balance discretion with the valid point you made about small falsehoods growing.

In his book My American Journey, General Colin Powell described being an 2nd Lt and losing track of a weapon that he had been assigned. Powell actually left a .45 caliber pistol unattended in a temporary billet during a field excerize- and did not realize it for two days.

Under robotic thinking, Powell's career could have ended there as losing track of weapon is a grave offense- espescialy for an officer. Yet, the non robotic Captain noted that Powell was an otherwise good officer and had high potential. He gave the weapon back to Powell with a verbal "Don't let it happen again". The matter was closed.

General Powell states that he never forgot that incident. Powell also related that he applied the lesson he learned that day from the Captain through out his career.

In short, good NCOs are neither robots, nor push overs. Balancing the two can be challenging- but that is what makes good NCOs.
https://www.amazon.com/My-American-Journey-Colin-Powell/dp/0345466411

Thank you.

You are welcome, and Thank you for your Service.

 

[tayaway]

Taxpayers also don't pay for NCOs to become robots either. Rather, NCOs need to balance discretion with the valid point you made about small falsehoods growing.

In his book My American Journey, General Colin Powell described being an 2nd Lt and losing track of a weapon that he had been assigned. Powell actually left a .45 caliber pistol unattended in a temporary billet during a field excerize- and did not realize it for two days.

Under robotic thinking, Powell's career could have ended there as losing track of weapon is a grave offense- espescialy for an officer. Yet, the non robotic Captain noted that Powell was an otherwise good officer and had high potential. He gave the weapon back to Powell with a verbal "Don't let it happen again". The matter was closed.

General Powell states that he never forgot that incident. Powell also related that he applied the lesson he learned that day from the Captain through out his career.

In short, good NCOs are neither robots, nor push overs. Balancing the two can be challenging- but that is what makes good NCOs.
https://www.amazon.com/My-American-Journey-Colin-Powell/dp/0345466411


You are welcome, and Thank you for your Service.

With so many different personalities and experiences, it's difficult to function like a robot. I remember when I was a 2Lt (Canadian reserves many, many moons ago) and out on one of my first weekend exercises. I got tasked with carrying my own rifle, along with the CO's and the Adj's. Don't lose them, ok? Emotions in humans cause a multitude of reactions.

 

[Boxer]

Taxpayers also don't pay for NCOs to become robots either. Rather, NCOs need to balance discretion with the valid point you made about small falsehoods growing.

In his book My American Journey, General Colin Powell described being an 2nd Lt and losing track of a weapon that he had been assigned. Powell actually left a .45 caliber pistol unattended in a temporary billet during a field excerize- and did not realize it for two days.

Under robotic thinking, Powell's career could have ended there as losing track of weapon is a grave offense- espescialy for an officer. Yet, the non robotic Captain noted that Powell was an otherwise good officer and had high potential. He gave the weapon back to Powell with a verbal "Don't let it happen again". The matter was closed.

General Powell states that he never forgot that incident. Powell also related that he applied the lesson he learned that day from the Captain through out his career.

In short, good NCOs are neither robots, nor push overs. Balancing the two can be challenging- but that is what makes good NCOs.
https://www.amazon.com/My-American-Journey-Colin-Powell/dp/0345466411


You are welcome, and Thank you for your Service.

MOO a forgotten weapon and a false record are much different.
Unintentional misplacing vs. Intentional lying.

Hard to believe an a NCO would be defending a false roll call. Its virtually their sole job to keep account of soldiers and material and keep then in good condition.

Its far more likely not accounting for a soldier was for a self serving reason.

 

[ChitBrick]

I agree with you. I said on this thread, before her body was found, that if you wanted to find her killer, tear that armory apart and inventory it. Follow the money. She was doing an inventory and looking at serial numbers on the day of her death. I agree with you, she may have stumbled on to something that got her killed. Her death sounds like a crime of passion. He destroyed her face with a hammer. He was very angry about something! If the leadership on Fort Hood is covering up any thing, or keeping it from the public, it would be thefts from the armory.

It may have been asked before, but was VG phone ever recovered?

 

[Boxer]

It may have been asked before, but was VG phone ever recovered?

MOO don't think so. If it had been prior to her body's discovery, think it would have been part of the information shared.
MOO phone messages recovered are from communications subpoenas.


Here is an article mentioning that it had not been found as of June 18th.
Vanessa Guillen missing: Family says Texas-based soldier made sexual harassment claim before disappearance

 

[ChitBrick]

Yes, they said there will be an independent investigation into Vanessa's case and also into sexual harrassment and reporting in general.

Reportedly, Vanessa told her family, a friend from Georgia, and other soldiers that she was being sexually harassed.

Just because it was not reported doesn't mean it didn't happen and it's not connected to her murder. Everyone she told can be questioned as part of the investigation.

They also stated that they will attempt to question some of the thousands of soldiers who have shared personal stories of sexual assault, rape, and sexual harrassment.

Towards the end of the PC they said that Aguilar is sharing more details about the murder and they are finding out new information everytime they speak to her.

I hope they are looking onto AR's past and any history of aggression or violence.

I'm sure there are a lot more details that we don't know that will eventually come to light.

Wonder what new details?