TX - pregnant wife unresponsive on life support, husband hopes to fulfill her wishes

[alwaysonmymind]

I can only speak from my personal experience. Most nurses I know treat the dying and dead as they would want their own loved ones to be treated. I have cared for many babies who have passed, unfortunately. I've washed them, dressed them and photographed them for their parents. I've clipped locks of hair, and done hand and foot prints. The parents hold them and love them, sometimes for hours and hours. Some of these little ones have been gone from us for some time. We try our best.................



My coworkers who work with adults do the same. It's why we became nurses. We care for our patients.

Thank you for sharing.


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[SophieRose]

The family will be there for the c-section AND will want to see Marlise when it's done. MOO

JPS will not leave her a bloody mess as is being described in this thread. moo


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Here's the Virginia case from 2005 where the baby died a few weeks later. Mother was unhooked the day after the birth of the baby girl and goodbyes were said. No organ donation though because of the cancer. The Hungary case is the first one with organ donations.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/03/AR2005080300224.html

After her husband and parents said their last goodbyes and after a priest offered a prayer -- words about weeping in a valley of tears -- Susan Torres, her improbable mission accomplished, was unhooked yesterday morning from the machines that sustained not only her body but that of her baby for the past three months.

The 26-year-old Arlington woman, who was felled by cancer and declared brain-dead in May, but who gave birth by Caesarean section Tuesday to the girl she had hoped for, died shortly thereafter. It was the end her family knew was inevitable, but it was no less difficult to fathom.

 

[faw720]

Then what are you doing in Texas?

Come to the West Coast, we're all hippies out here!

I'm here by accident of birth & have too many connections here. Believe me, there are times when I think I made a mistake by staying here.

 

[dh109977]

I can only speak from my personal experience. Most nurses I know treat the dying and dead as they would want their own loved ones to be treated. I have cared for many babies who have passed, unfortunately. I've washed them, dressed them and photographed them for their parents. I've clipped locks of hair, and done hand and foot prints. The parents hold them and love them, sometimes for hours and hours. Some of these little ones have been gone from us for some time. We try our best.................

My coworkers who work with adults do the same. It's why we became nurses. We care for our patients.

That is awesome although I imagine incredibly hard for you. So sweet. Thank you for sharing. Thank you for caring.

 

[jjenny]

Here's the Virginia case from 2005 where the baby died a few weeks later. Mother was unhooked the day after the birth of the baby girl and goodbyes were said. No organ donation though because of the cancer. The Hungary case is the first one with organ donations.

The Torres story is very sad. Sounds like the baby died due to complications of being born premature.
The Hungary case is not the frist one with organ donations, I found a bunch of other cases in which organs were donated.

 

[AnaTeresa]

I can understand the family being upset because their wishes weren't considered. But this baby was wanted up until the mother passed away.

That is very sad but the baby is still growing. Still has a heartbeat. Still deserves a chance. I don't understand why they wouldn't want that last piece of this mother to live on.

Yes, that's what makes me sad about this case. I can identify so strongly with the mother - I myself wouldn't want to be kept on life support, but if I were pregnant, I would desperately want my child to have a chance. If this were my family member, I'd be praying and hoping for that baby to live.

I don't understand the mindset of the family (and without a written directive, I'm not sure if they truly know what Marlise wanted), but I'm uncomfortable with the state removing their choice. Truly, it's a no-win situation, with very hard choices on all sides. I don't think it should be the state's decision, and yet, I can understand why the hospital is applying the law this way. In the end, I have to support the family, even if I can't see their point of view.

 

[Caffeinatedkat]

as the mother of 4 with one being only 4 months old I WOULD DO ANYTHING to save my child. I told my husband flat out if something bad happened to me and it was me or her, pick her. I have already lived 35 wonderful years. Whatever her preference was concerning life support not pregnant could have changed when she was with child and no one can ask her now. I hope this baby lives so that something good can come out of this horrible situation.

 

[faw720]

I've already stated my opinion here that I think, one way or another, the state of Texas will ensure that a baby is born. Whether or not it is born alive, dead, or anywhere between is no concern of the state.

Is there anyone here knowledgeable enough with Texas law to tell us the legal status should the baby be born brain dead. Would the father be allowed to make any medical decisions or does the state have the right to usurp authority & continue to determine the baby's treatment?......perhaps for years. For sure, the baby is not going to be born with a medical power of attorney in hand, so who get's to make the decision for him/her? IMO, this is really scary.

 

[faw720]

Thank you K_Z !
I really appreciate all the work you do and information you provide the button wasn't enough!


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Amen to that!! K_Z is providing us with the medical reality of this situation! Thank you K_Z!!

 

[jaxibear]

I've already stated my opinion here that I think, one way or another, the state of Texas will ensure that a baby is born. Whether or not it is born alive, dead, or anywhere between is no concern of the state.

Is there anyone here knowledgeable enough with Texas law to tell us the legal status should the baby be born brain dead. Would the father be allowed to make any medical decisions or does the state have the right to usurp authority & continue to determine the baby's treatment?......perhaps for years. For sure, the baby is not going to be born with a medical power of attorney in hand, so who get's to make the decision for him/her? IMO, this is really scary.

I have discussed this case with a few people in real life. A couple of them have actually said that the father's parental rights should be revoked if the baby does survive, since he is not acting the way they think a father should. I find that attitude sad. I don't think anyone can judge his fitness as a father based on his desire to do what he feels is right under the very tragic circumstances.

 

[faw720]

I have discussed this case with a few people in real life. A couple of them have actually said that the father's parental rights should be revoked if the baby does survive, since he is not acting the way they think a father should. I find that attitude sad. I don't think anyone can judge his fitness as a father based on his desire to do what he feels is right under the very tragic circumstances.

I absolutely agree! He is only trying to respect his dead wife's wishes. Her wishes & his wishes might have been totally different if both had not been EMTs. EMTs, law enforcement, & firemen/firewomen have enough medical knowledge & experience to know when dead IS dead. The Munozs might have made a different decision had they been accountants, salespersons, carpenters, or anyone of another profession.:banghead:

 

[kincaid]

e mindset that so many people hold out (IMO, unrealistic and magical) hope that this fetus will be perfectly normal. In the same way, I cannot fathom that so many people actually believe Jahi McMath will arise from brain death "if only" there is enough hope and prayer, and fish oil and such.

Brain dead is brain dead. Marlise Munoz and Jahi McMath are both dead and aren't coming back. The fetus is not dead. The idea that it's life can be terminated because it might not be 'normal' is a slippery slope many people with pro-choice views also hold. I don't believe that a life is only worth saving because someone is perfect. If that was the case then close down the NICUs. Why save those micro preemies when many will be disabled for life anyways.

 

[ceecee30]

I don't believe that a life is only worth saving because someone is perfect. If that was the case then close down the NICUs. Why save those micro preemies when many will be disabled for life anyways.

Couldn't agree with you more here.... But maybe it's because I am mother of a preemie, I and my son have been through a lot of the tests that they'd be running on the Munoz baby. We were hospitalized for last 8 weeks of pregnancy and he was 8 weeks early, because of my illnesses my son wasn't get the full oxygen he should have been... He is 100% completely normal (brain wise) after 8 weeks of reduced oxygen levels.

The fetus is showing vital signs in normal ranges, why would the baby's father want to stop that??

That's the question I'm asking, is why the hospital wants to fight for the baby so much but yet the babies father and family wants to kill the baby by removing life support to the mother.

 

[dh109977]

Couldn't agree with you more here.... But maybe it's because I am mother of a preemie, I and my son have been through a lot of the tests that they'd be running on the Munoz baby.

The fetus is showing vital signs in normal ranges, why would the baby's father want to stop that??

That's the question I'm asking, is why the hospital wants to fight for the baby so much but yet the babies father and family wants to kill the baby by removing life support to the mother.

Oh Thank you! :loveyou: the thanks button wasn't enough.

 

[jjenny]

Brain dead is brain dead. Marlise Munoz and Jahi McMath are both dead and aren't coming back. The fetus is not dead. The idea that it's life can be terminated because it might not be 'normal' is a slippery slope many people with pro-choice views also hold. I don't believe that a life is only worth saving because someone is perfect. If that was the case then close down the NICUs. Why save those micro preemies when many will be disabled for life anyways.

If mother were alive, she would have an option to terminate pregnancy if tests showed fetus was not normal. So how is that a slippery slope?

 

[jjenny]

I've already stated my opinion here that I think, one way or another, the state of Texas will ensure that a baby is born. Whether or not it is born alive, dead, or anywhere between is no concern of the state.

Is there anyone here knowledgeable enough with Texas law to tell us the legal status should the baby be born brain dead. Would the father be allowed to make any medical decisions or does the state have the right to usurp authority & continue to determine the baby's treatment?......perhaps for years. For sure, the baby is not going to be born with a medical power of attorney in hand, so who get's to make the decision for him/her? IMO, this is really scary.

TX will terminate life support if baby is brain dead. TX has the same criteria for death as do all other states (with exception of New Jersey). Brain dead is considered legally dead. So if the baby is brain dead, the baby will not going to be kept on life support.

 

[jjenny]

...

The fetus is showing vital signs in normal ranges, why would the baby's father want to stop that??

...

I don't know what his reasoning is, but both he and his wife's parents expressed concerns that fetus was oxygen deprived and therefore might be abnormally developing. Vital signs such as hearbeat don't tell the whole story. Fetus could have normal heartbeat but be abnormally developed.
So this guy could end up with huge medical bills, and potentially very abnormally developed infant. As a single father, it's not something everyone could or would want to handle. Now, I don't know if he would have wanted the child even if the child was shown to be developing normally. Considering he filed the lawsuit before waiting for more tests results on the fetus.

 

[ceecee30]

I don't know what his reasoning is, but both he and his wife's parents expressed concerns that fetus was oxygen deprived and therefore might be abnormally developing. Vital signs such as hearbeat don't tell the whole story. Fetus could have normal heartbeat but be abnormally developed.
So this guy could end up with huge medical bills, and potentially very abnormally developed infant. As a single father, it's not something everyone could or would want to handle. Now, I don't know if he would have wanted the child even if the child was shown to be developing normally. Considering he filed the lawsuit before waiting for more tests results on the fetus.

You put a link up days ago that had stated the hospital tests the baby daily, that's not just checking the fetal heart beat, that's testing the baby. There's no way they would have continued this pregnancy without ultrasound images (which can be done in radiology or bedside) the ultrasound shows, development of heart & blood flow, they check the flow of blood to ALL major organs.

Visible abnormalities are detectable via ultrasound, which the hospital would have done, these are done at 14 and 20 weeks to check on development.

In relation to the baby's brain that will have to be wait and see when the baby arrives (I'm unsure if there are tests that can check this in utero)

They are waiting until 24 weeks to give the child a chance at survival.

 

[jjenny]

You put a link up days ago that had stated the hospital tests the baby daily, that's not just checking the fetal heart beat, that's testing the baby. There's no way they would have continued this pregnancy without ultrasound images (which can be done in radiology or bedside) the ultrasound shows, development of heart & blood flow, they check the flow of blood to ALL major organs.

Visible abnormalities are detectable via ultrasound, which the hospital would have done, these are done at 14 and 20 weeks to check on development.

In relation to the baby's brain that will have to be wait and see when the baby arrives (I'm unsure if there are tests that can check this in utero)

They are waiting until 24 weeks to give the child a chance at survival.

My understanding is that the daily tests only consist of measuring hearbeat.
I didn't put up any links that said otherwise. Hospital already made its position known. They believe per TX law they have to continue life support. So to say that no way they would have continued the pregnancy if fetus was abnormal is not accurate.

 

[ceecee30]

My understanding is that the daily tests only consist of measuring hearbeat.
I didn't put up any links that said otherwise. Hospital already made its position known. They believe per TX law they have to continue life support. So to say that no way they would have continued the pregnancy if fetus was abnormal is not accurate.

Measuring fetal heart rate would be monitoring, for the father to say a hospital would only be monitoring the heart rate is ludicrous.

Hospitals have a duty of care to patients and it's abundantly clear that this hospital and the Texas law state that this baby is a patient, it would be negligent to just offer fetal heart monitoring as the only testing means.

Seeing as they are considering the baby a patient this would be considered a high risk pregnancy which opens up a whole world of testing that the average pregnancy usually doesn't require.

MOO