TX - pregnant wife unresponsive on life support, husband hopes to fulfill her wishes

[Linda7NJ]

A lot of people would die if we simply allowed nature to take its course. For instance, if someone needs a heart transplant. We don't take an approach that we should just allow nature take its course.

Wrong, if the person needing a heart transplant was a child in the foster care system...the child would not get a heart.


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[jaxibear]

I don't think many people know how exactly they feel about this situation. I have been torn, gone back and forth, and felt intense sorrow and sadness for everyone affected.

I hope that something good comes out of this tragedy, and, at the very least, women will consider all circumstances when making their wishes about life support known to their loved ones. I know my husband and I have discussed our wishes, but we never thought to take into account a pregnancy. I hope all women will do so now.

This is just so sad.....My heart breaks for this family.

 

[DeeMarie]

We will find out on Friday.

I wonder what possibly be the argument during the hearing on Friday for keeping a severely deformed fetus alive in a dead mother?

I am just thinking out loud and the words above should only belong in some science fiction book..

I hope the Judge makes the right call and ends this madness for the family.

 

[DeeMarie]

That's absolutely false. From what has been reported, he is not being kept away.

Source?

I would like to think that Mr. Munoz is allowed to see his wife BUT I also believe that since the state has totally taken over all decisions for Mrs. Munoz then the
state would also control who/when/how long her family can see her.

If Mr. Munoz can see his wife I am sure there are security guards in the room at the same time.

 

[Steft50]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...shes-distinctly-abnormal-deprived-oxygen.html

 

[jjenny]

Source?

I would like to think that Mr. Munoz is allowed to see his wife BUT I also believe that since the state has totally taken over all decisions for Mrs. Munoz then the
state would also control who/when/how long her family can see her.

If Mr. Munoz can see his wife I am sure there are security guards in the room at the same time.

It is reported he is visting her every day. I already posted it somewhere on this thread, I am not looking for it again.

 

[jjenny]

i dont think im allowed to reply directly so i will speak in abstract;

if someone previously felt that given the circumstances in this case the fetus deserved every chance at life including overriding the wishes of the dead mother and her living family members, and since none of the new information is proof that this baby could not possibly be carried to term, then in my opinion that person should also believe that this fetus is still entitled to every possible chance at life.

My opinion always was that fetus should be checked for abnormalities and given a chance if normal. Since it has multiple abnormalities it seems it might be best to terminate life support. But then again, it's TX so its probably going to be born no matter what.

 

[hambirg]

i dont think im allowed to reply directly so i will speak in abstract;

if someone previously felt that given the circumstances in this case the fetus deserved every chance at life including overriding the wishes of the dead mother and her living family members, and since none of the new information is proof that this baby could not possibly be carried to term, then in my opinion that person should also believe that this fetus is still entitled to every possible chance at life.

No one was ever overriding the wishes of the dead mother. We never knew what they were, for this given situation.

I will step up.

It's a tragic outcome and one I can't say I didn't see coming (thanks to the opinions of the posters here with medical knowledge.) I still don't think that changes the legal argument at all. Mr. Munoz does not have the right to terminate his wife's pregnancy. He didn't have that right before and he doesn't have that right now.

What does change, is the state's interest in the potential life of the fetus. The state now, through something like a court order from a judge, may choose, based upon the medical evidence from physicians to (what's the term? :banghead, not take any extraordinary measures.

It's now an evidentiary case. The judge can rule, based on the physicians' opinions and now known evidence, that the the fetus is "futile." In essence, that they will not be trying to save the fetus, but only prolong it's dying if continued care is given. That will really be up to the judge, the physicians and the medical evidence.

What it won't have anything to do with is Mr. Munoz's perceived 14th amendment right to an abortion, advance directive laws regarding power of attorney, nor the pregnancy clause in the Texas advance directive law. What ever the judge decides will not have any impact on those issues. This is now a evidentiary case as to whether the fetus will be ruled "futile" based upon the medical evidence.

ETA- I just wanted to say I don't know how this judge will rule. He could still very well say, "No, the fetus has to be "dead." However, there is some wiggle room now there if it can be shown that the fetus is futile. IMO, that will be left up to the physicians.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I don't think many people know how exactly they feel about this situation. I have been torn, gone back and forth, and felt intense sorrow and sadness for everyone affected.



I hope that something good comes out of this tragedy, and, at the very least, women will consider all circumstances when making their wishes about life support known to their loved ones. I know my husband and I have discussed our wishes, but we never thought to take into account a pregnancy. I hope all women will do so now.



This is just so sad.....My heart breaks for this family.

I know exactly where I stand and how I feel. It should have been a family decision.



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[CHERIE.T]

I wanted the baby to pull through. Now I want this baby not to suffer. While I am stuck on what I mean by that. I am afraid if they turn the life support off the mother the baby will suffocate. I am afraid if the baby is delivered early or full term it is gonna suffer. I still want a miracle to happen because I can't wrap my brain around how this is gonna all happen. What I am getting at is if this baby is gonna pass I want it the easiest way for the baby. maybe I don't know what I am trying to say. I am torn

Im torn too. Like you I wanted the baby to be born if he/she was healthy. I've tossed around what if the mother had wishes not to be kept alive under the current circumstances. To hear the baby isn't well.... smh.

 

[K_Z]

I wonder what possibly be the argument during the hearing on Friday for keeping a severely deformed fetus alive in a dead mother?
I am just thinking out loud and the words above should only belong in some science fiction book..

I hope the Judge makes the right call and ends this madness for the family.

BBM.

Well, I can speculate. IMO, the State of Texas argument will be:

*The heart is still beating. This child is alive.
*This child will feel unbearable pain if it is allowed to die.
*We don't know what will happen once this child is born.
*We have come "this far" and the child is alive; let's give it a chance.
*We can't discriminate and decide which disabled children should live, and which ones should die.
*The State of Texas cannot be responsible for executing this child because he or she is disabled.
*The Hospital has provided the best care available to Mrs Munoz and her child.
*We do not know what medical science is capable of, so this child deserves a chance at life.
*We don't know if this child would have had these severe deformities before Mrs. Munoz collapsed.
*These are each very treatable conditions. A heart condition does not mean a child should be killed. We can do surgery for the legs, the heart, and the hydrocephalus.

And the Texas Pro Life "Nuclear" rationale (or nu-ku-ler, if you're GWB):

*If God had wanted this child dead, He would not have kept the heart beating, and given us the technology to bring it to term.


IMO. JMO. And all that.

 

[jjenny]

Doesn't sound like fetus will even enter into the legal discussion. Hospital will argue she is a patient thus they have to keep her on life support by law. Lawyers for the husband will argue she is dead therefore not a patient.

 

[K_Z]

Doesn't sound like fetus will even enter into the legal discussion. Hospital will argue she is a patient thus they have to keep her on life support by law. Lawyers for the husband will argue she is dead therefore not a patient.

You may be right about that. But the lawyers leaking this information about the condition of the fetus says to me that they will add it into their arguments to withdraw life support.

 

[jjenny]

You may be right about that. But the lawyers leaking this information about the condition of the fetus says to me that they will add it into their arguments to withdraw life support.

I think they leaked for the public opinion. The lawyers already said condition of fetus is not relevant to their lawsuit.

 

[K_Z]

I think they leaked for the public opinion. The lawyers already said condition of fetus is not relevant to their lawsuit.

BBM.

Yup. I think they did, too.

 

[Lunar1121]

Trying to catch up...can someone confirm for me that the baby is proven to have deformities or something?

Here we are with another case to discuss with my husband. We are going to redo our wills soon and now we have to consider this too, goodness. I for one am willing to be hooked up to a machine to give my precious baby life. However, I need to ask my husband if he would want the baby NO MATTER WHAT and go from there I guess. I personally have never agreed with terminating a pregnancy just because of abnormalities but that is JUST ME.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Trying to catch up...can someone confirm for me that the baby is proven to have deformities or something?

Here we are with another case to discuss with my husband. We are going to redo our wills soon and now we have to consider this too, goodness. I for one am willing to be hooked up to a machine to give my precious baby life. However, I need to ask my husband if he would want the baby NO MATTER WHAT and go from there I guess. I personally have never agreed with terminating a pregnancy just because of abnormalities but that is JUST ME.

Yes, it's been confirmed. I suggest you read the thread backwards


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[al66pine]

I found a lot of cases where normal children were produced despite mother being brain dead. In this case the mother must have been too long without oxygen.

My first question is in this post's title.

Are these cases reported in peer-reviewed medical periodicals?
If so, links please.

Thx in adv.:seeya:

 

[RJA00]

I don't think the law needs to be changed. If the baby heart is beating nobody has the right to stop it, I would not want my husband or family to make that decision. The baby should be treated has the patient. nobody has the right to end a pregnancy except for the mother. Since she can not make that decision. nobody else can. I don't believe she ever said pull the plug if I am pregnant and something happens to me. I am sorry but husband, boyfriends and family members have no right end a pregnancy even if anything is wrong with the baby. I am hoping the judge sees it that way too on friday.

 

[Karmady]

So, if a living mother affirmatively decides (because she is not brain dead) to try and carry a baby with defects to term, that's fine. But if that same mother can't make that decision (because she's brain dead -- or say in a coma or pvs), it's up to the father and family -- who could not decide if the mother were alive?

And, imo, the mother expressing her wish to not be on life support is not the same as the mother expressing her wish not to be on life support that could deliver her child- with anomalies or not. Imo, the biggest problem here is that no one knows what the mother would have decided within the window provided by Tx law.