TX - pregnant wife unresponsive on life support, husband hopes to fulfill her wishes

[jjenny]

I have to ask because every state is different and I don't know lots of stuff. Is the hospital following a law or is the state compelling the hospital to keep her on support? To me it is either the hospital or the state, not both. jmo idk

That's what the judge is going to have to decide.

 

[alliemay]

I wonder what the percentage is for baby's born with water on the brain, and heart problems, surviving. My Dad, and his twin brother, were born in 1927, and for what ever reason my Dad was born with water on the brain, but not his brother. Not sure what tests they would have used back then to determine this, but he lived a full life, served in the war as a medic, married, had children, and became a minister, and died at eighty years old.

I have had a very small glimpse of this families pain. In 1985 my husband had an accident at work that left him brain damaged, but not brain dead, he had only been given 20 percent chance of living when they operated. Another family was going through the same thing with their son. "Living" in the waiting room over several weeks we became close. Myself and this other family waited patiently for the doctor to give us each some good news about out loved ones condition. I overheard the doctor telling this other family that they had to make the decision to remove life support from their son. My heart broke for them. They chose to wait and the boy died on his own. I went to the viewing, telling them how sorry I was only to have the sister of the boy tell me, in a envious tone, "at least you have your husband". Little did she know I did not have the husband that was. So I am aware of how doctor's play God. I still say they only granted him 20 percent quality of life in return by operating on him. His will kept him alive. Now my kids know that if anything like that were to happen to me do not operate, let me go so they can remember me for the person I was. So I can understand why the parents and the husband want to let her rest in peace. But this is all totally different because of the baby. I really don't know what I would do if I were put in the same situation, but on the outside looking in, part of me still wants to root for this baby.

 

[jjenny]

They can do surgeries for hydrocephalus and heart problems (depending on how severe it is) but likely nothing much can be done if legs are severely deformed except amputations. It sounds to me like there could be problems with the spine resulting in both hydrocephalus and leg deformities?
It appears to me that this fetus has multiple abnormalities and the hospital knew that for while, but only provided medical records to the father after a lawsuit.
Given such odds against the fetus (abnormalities, family doesn't seem to want the fetus to be born) it's not going to be a good outcome here. I now hope that life support can be turned off so the fetus can die in peace.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

I have to ask because every state is different and I don't know lots of stuff. Is the hospital following a law or is the state compelling the hospital to keep her on support? To me it is either the hospital or the state, not both. jmo idk

I'm getting the impression the hospital is misinterpreting the law.

What's in the medical records remains to be seen. Like others, I do wonder if they did all the tests required by law to determine brain death and if not, what their reasons were for not performing all of the tests.

This is where, IMO, things might get sticky.

I think the judge should have a independent neurologist perform the exams, if they haven't been performed already. If she meets brain death criteria, they need to issue a declaration of death and remove the vent.

I see no need for them to have to address the condition of the fetus. Maybe it will do some good for the future if they do though.

 

[Elley Mae]

At this link there is a picture 8/14 it's a fetus at 20 weeks and I tell I gotta say the legs look abnormal to me. jmo idk


http://www.medicinenet.com/fetal_development_pictures_slideshow/article.htm

 

[jjenny]

I'm getting the impression the hospital is misinterpreting the law.

What's in the medical records remains to be seen. Like others, I do wonder if they did all the tests required by law to determine brain death and if not, what their reasons were for not performing all of the tests.

This is where, IMO, things might get sticky.

I think the judge should have a independent neurologist perform the exams, if they haven't been performed already. If she meets brain death criteria, they need to issue a declaration of death and remove the vent.

I see no need for them to have to address the condition of the fetus. Maybe it will do some good for the future if they do though.

I bet the hospital hasn't done all the required tests to declare her brain dead. If she hasn't been officially declared brain dead, then she isn't legally dead. Thus, she is a patient under TX law. I am not sure why hospital is so set on producing the fetus with multiple deformities, but I bet that's what is going on here.

 

[jjenny]

At this link there is a picture 8/14 it's a fetus at 20 weeks and I tell I gotta say the legs look abnormal to me. jmo idk


http://www.medicinenet.com/fetal_development_pictures_slideshow/article.htm

But you are not an MD, I presume.
Obviously a professional will look at the image and know what is normal and what isn't.

 

[alliemay]

Is she also on some medical device to keep her heart beating? Sorry if I don't know all the facts. I would have to wonder though, if a machine is not keeping her heart beating, how does the heart keep beating on it's own if you are brain dead?

 

[jjenny]

Is she also on some medical device to keep her heart beating? Sorry if I don't know all the facts. I would have to wonder though, if a machine is not keeping her heart beating, how does the heart keep beating on it's own if you are brain dead?

She is on a ventillator. Ventillator pumps oxygen into her.

 

[NevadaMom]

I'm getting the impression the hospital is misinterpreting the law.

What's in the medical records remains to be seen. Like others, I do wonder if they did all the tests required by law to determine brain death and if not, what their reasons were for not performing all of the tests.

This is where, IMO, things might get sticky.

I think the judge should have a independent neurologist perform the exams, if they haven't been performed already. If she meets brain death criteria, they need to issue a declaration of death and remove the vent.

I see no need for them to have to address the condition of the fetus. Maybe it will do some good for the future if they do though.

BBM... The problem is the Texas state law that says the non-viable fetus trumped the prior declared choices of the mother as well as the wishes of both her husband and her parents.

Honestly I think making her loved ones suffer through watching her on a vent week after week knowing she's dead was bad enough. Now to get word that the fetus has multiple abnormalities to the point where gender cannot be identified... it's disgusting. The level of pain they are enduring because the state of Texas wants to have supreme power over all the uteruses is beyond despicable.

I'm glad my pregnancy when I lived in DFW was not problematic. I could not imagine my family going through this horror.

IMO. :moo:

 

[alwaysonmymind]

But you are not an MD, I presume.

Obviously a professional will look at the image and know what is normal and what isn't.

I wish we could hear from the doctors involved.




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[lisser]

At this link there is a picture 8/14 it's a fetus at 20 weeks and I tell I gotta say the legs look abnormal to me. jmo idk


http://www.medicinenet.com/fetal_development_pictures_slideshow/article.htm

I'm 24 weeks pregnant now myself. Ultrasound pictures, especially 3D ultrasound pictures can look very off, like there is something wrong, because the machines take pictures in "slices" or "planes" and then stack them together to create the image. If the plane that the image is on is slightly off the body part in the frame, it will look like pieces are "missing" when they really aren't. It's just that that particular frame doesn't have all of the information in it to create a full image.

In some of the ultrasounds I've had, the way that they move the wand can make it look like the baby has a huge hole in it, or that body parts are deformed. As soon as the angle of the wand is change, voila, there is the normal hand, foot, head...whatever.

I am going on the presumption that the mother likely had a blood test and ultrasound around 12 weeks, as is usually recommended, which would have been before the embolism, and that they may know that the risk factors for chromosomal issues is low. The Dr's can diagnose physical deformity with ultrasound, but they likely won't be able to determine if there is any brain function issues due to lack of oxygen until they deliver a very premature baby.

I haven't read through all of the threads to find out the exact details of what happen to Marlise, because being almost at the same gestational point as she is, it's a little upsetting for me. I thought I had read that she was without oxygen for about an hour. Did her heart actually stop beating? I would think that if she had not been breathing for that length of time, and her heart had stopped beating, that the fetus would have quickly died inside her. Since it didn't, I wonder if she actually didn't stop breathing at all, or not until just a few minutes before her husband found her. Still enough time for her brain to become dead, but not long enough for the fetus to have been deprived of oxygen too.

I personally would want them to do what they could to save my baby, even if it meant using me as an incubator...because that is exactly what I am doing right now...incubating my very much wanted baby.

Edited to add...I haven't read back the last few pages...I'm going to do that now...they diagnosed the baby as deformed?

 

[Elley Mae]

But you are not an MD, I presume.
Obviously a professional will look at the image and know what is normal and what isn't.

Exactly. And the person that is claiming abnormalities iirc is a lawyer, no?


snipped.

"[T]he fetus is distinctly abnormal," said Muñoz family attorneys Heather King and Jessica Janicek in the statement. "Even at this early stage, the lower extremities are deformed to the extent that the gender cannot be determined."

http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/Munoz-lawyers-statement-241550881.html

 

[Zuri]

This is really tragic. They need to turn the vent off and let the nightmare end for the family and this dead mother and fetus who has little chance of survival. What a nightmare. JMO

 

[BeginnersLuck]

BBM... The problem is the Texas state law that says the non-viable fetus trumped the prior declared choices of the mother as well as the wishes of both her husband and her parents.

Honestly I think making her loved ones suffer through watching her on a vent week after week knowing she's dead was bad enough. Now to get word that the fetus has multiple abnormalities to the point where gender cannot be identified... it's disgusting. The level of pain they are enduring because the state of Texas wants to have supreme power over all the uteruses is beyond despicable.

I'm glad my pregnancy when I lived in DFW was not problematic. I could not imagine my family going through this horror.

IMO. :moo:

BBM: Are you talking about the same statute or is this something else? If it's the same statute IMO, it's not applicable if she is deceased.

Section 166.049:
Pregnant Patients
A person may not withdraw or withhold life-sustaining treatment under this subchapter from a pregnant patient.

They are not providing her with life-sustaining treatment if she is legally dead. It would apply if she was in a coma.

The only law that should apply in the case is the brain death law. The pregnant patient law should not apply if she is deceased.

Is there another statute that they are questioning? If you can direct me to it, I would much appreciate it. I am coming in late in the discussion.

 

[Karmady]

Exactly. And the person that is claiming abnormalities iirc is a lawyer, no?


snipped.

"[T]he fetus is distinctly abnormal," said Muñoz family attorneys Heather King and Jessica Janicek in the statement. "Even at this early stage, the lower extremities are deformed to the extent that the gender cannot be determined."

http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/Munoz-lawyers-statement-241550881.html

But the lawyer's statements would have been based, hopefully, on a review of the test results by their own medical expert or at least having been told that by the Hospital's own docs. I know lawyers are known to do some pretty sketchy things, but telling the court the baby is deformed if it is not (or is not known to be) would, imo, be someplace only THE most unethical lawyer would go. I doubt that they would make such an unequivocal statement in such a high profile case if they did not have medical evidence to support it.

jmo

 

[DeeMarie]

I wonder what the scenario would be of this was a woman who had no family or friends to help.

Who would be her voice?

How much stronger of a grip would the state of Texas have on a woman in this case who would be declared 'state property'?

- as in the same case as Marlise Munoz..

 

[Zuri]

Have the doctors done an amnio where they could examine the chromosomes? That study would determine the sex and abnormalities/syndromes expected.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

Exactly. And the person that is claiming abnormalities iirc is a lawyer, no?


snipped.

"[T]he fetus is distinctly abnormal," said Muñoz family attorneys Heather King and Jessica Janicek in the statement. "Even at this early stage, the lower extremities are deformed to the extent that the gender cannot be determined."

http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/Munoz-lawyers-statement-241550881.html

The lawyer may be going off of medical records though. I doubt he would just make that statement without something to back it up. Unless, it is second hand from the family.

eta: Posted before I saw your statement Karmady.

 

[alwaysonmymind]

BBM: Are you talking about the same statute or is this something else? If it's the same statute IMO, it's not applicable if she is deceased.



Section 166.049:

Pregnant Patients

A person may not withdraw or withhold life-sustaining treatment under this subchapter from a pregnant patient.



They are not providing her with life-sustaining treatment if she is legally dead. It would apply if she was in a coma.



The only law that should apply in the case is the brain death law. The pregnant patient law should not apply if she is deceased.



Is there another statute that they are questioning? If you can direct me to it, I would much appreciate it. I am coming in late in the discussion.

I'm wondering if the Texas Prenatal Protection Act is being considered in part in this case.


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