TX - pregnant wife unresponsive on life support, husband hopes to fulfill her wishes

[Elley Mae]

But the lawyer's statements would have been based, hopefully, on a review of the test results by their own medical expert or at least having been told that by the Hospital's own docs. I know lawyer's are known to do some pretty sketchy things, but telling the court the baby is deformed if it is not (or is not known to be) would, imo, be someplace only THE most unethical lawyer would go. I doubt that they would make such an unequivocal statement in such a high profile case if they did not have medical evidence to support it.

jmo

I would hope but they are lawyers, and they are batting for the father. I just know that iirc the hospital is not allowed to talk, so 2, two days before court the public is informed about abnormalities from the lawyers for the father. I would love to think (believe) that lawyers wouldn't do that (lie) about the abnormalities but I have also been reading some of Christopher Dolan's claims that don't add up so I don't know. jmo idk

 

[hambirg]

I completely agree with Mark Geragos in the video discussion at the link.

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2014/01/...n-dead-mom-is-distinctly-abnormal/?hpt=ac_bn6

The statute reads:

Section 166.049:
Pregnant Patients
A person may not withdraw or withhold life-sustaining treatment under this subchapter from a pregnant patient.

http://www.weblaws.org/texas/laws/tex._health_and_safety_code_section_166.049_pregnant_patients

The pregnant patient is deceased, therefore there is no life to sustain. The statute applies to the "pregnant patient" not the fetus. The fetus is not pregnant.

This is assuming it has been determined she is legally brain dead.

That's how I would interpret the statute.

But that's not the section of the statute that applies. That is the Advance Medical Directive section. The section of the statute that applies here is the Medical Power of Attorney.

SUBCHAPTER D. MEDICAL POWER OF ATTORNEY

Sec. 166.151. DEFINITIONS. In this subchapter:
(1) "Adult" means a person 18 years of age or older or a person under 18 years of age who has had the disabilities of minority removed.
(2) "Agent" means an adult to whom authority to make health care decisions is delegated under a medical power of attorney.
(3) "Health care provider" means an individual or facility licensed, certified, or otherwise authorized to administer health care, for profit or otherwise, in the ordinary course of business or professional practice and includes a physician.
(4) "Principal" means an adult who has executed a medical power of attorney.
(5) "Residential care provider" means an individual or facility licensed, certified, or otherwise authorized to operate, for profit or otherwise, a residential care home. . . .

f) Notwithstanding any other provision of this subchapter, an agent may not consent to:
(1) voluntary inpatient mental health services;
(2) convulsive treatment;
(3) psychosurgery;
(4) abortion; or
(5) neglect of the principal through the omission of care primarily intended to provide for the comfort of the principal.

The statutes regarding Medical Power of Attorney never even use or define the term "patient" only "primary"

It's a weak legal argument. If that's the only argument they present, the judge can find it all moot, because Marlise did not leave an advance medical directive, only a medical power of attorney.

 

[hambirg]

I found this a good read

http://verdict.justia.com/2014/01/22/excluding-pregnant-women-right-terminate-life-support

Similarly, if a pregnant woman with cancer decides to undergo chemotherapy to lengthen her own life, but the chemotherapy foreseeably results in the death of her fetus, the chemotherapy does not thereby become the ethical equivalent of an abortion.

BBM

That is the key phrase and it's why they can determine that she may choose to save herself, in essence.

 

[lisser]

The lawyer may be going off of medical records though. I doubt he would just make that statement without something to back it up. Unless, it is second hand from the family.

eta: Posted before I saw your statement Karmady.

Could the lawyer be "playing" towards public sympathy in making the deformities sound worse than they actually are?

And if there are lower limb deformities, would they not have occurred before the embolism? She had that happen at 14 weeks. By 14 weeks gestation, the lower limbs and genitalia are fully formed. And depending on the severity of the hydrocephalus, it can resolve itself by the third trimester, presuming of course that Marlise would be kept on the ventilator that long.

I would really like to hear from the Dr's exactly what this baby has been diagnosed with. It usually takes more than one ultrasound to definitively diagnose abnormalities.

 

[Elainera]

Is she also on some medical device to keep her heart beating? Sorry if I don't know all the facts. I would have to wonder though, if a machine is not keeping her heart beating, how does the heart keep beating on it's own if you are brain dead?

In one of the numerous articles linked in these threads I read that the heart has its own 'stimulator', something to do with electrolytes and energy created that triggers the contractions. Sorry I can't explain it better, maybe someone else can.

 

[faw720]

I would hope but they are lawyers, and they are batting for the father. I just know that iirc the hospital is not allowed to talk, so 2, two days before court the public is informed about abnormalities from the lawyers for the father. I would love to think (believe) that lawyers wouldn't do that (lie) about the abnormalities but I have also been reading some of Christopher Dolan's claims that don't add up so I don't know. jmo idk

This is only my speculation, nothing more. I think that Erick Munoz had to file a lawsuit in order to acquire compete medical information. The state & hospital attorneys have basically kidnapped Marlise & the fetus & consider Erick nothing more than a stumbling block to their medical experiment. I actually feel sorry for at least some of the JPS medical personnel. There may be at least some 'mad scientists' among them, but I think there are also some who feel that they are being forced to continue with unethical & immoral medical procedures. The Texas government somewhat resembles a Nazi death camp where doctors carried out medical experiments.

 

[alwaysonmymind]

I would hope but they are lawyers, and they are batting for the father. I just know that iirc the hospital is not allowed to talk, so 2, two days before court the public is informed about abnormalities from the lawyers for the father. I would love to think (believe) that lawyers wouldn't do that (lie) about the abnormalities but I have also been reading some of Christopher Dolan's claims that don't add up so I don't know. jmo idk

"According to the medical records we have been provided....

More questions than answers for me.

How recent were the tests?
What tests were performed?
Has a MD reviewed the medical records?
Etc.

Moo




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[BeginnersLuck]

I'm wondering if the Texas Prenatal Protection Act is being considered in part in this case.


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Texas prenatal protection act

http://www.texmed.org/Template.aspx?id=2688

PRENATAL PROTECTION ACT

SB 319 by Senator Ken Armbrister (D-Victoria) and Rep. Ray Allen (R-Grand Prairie) amends the Wrongful Death Act to add an unborn child to the definition of an "individual." A wrongful death and survival claim cannot be brought for the death of an unborn fetus against the mother, a health care provider performing a lawful medical procedure, or one dispensing a drug in accordance with law.

The bill also amends the Penal Code to add "unborn child" to the definition of an "individual." It excepts from prosecution for the homicide of an unborn child the mother, a health care provider performing an abortion or assisted reproduction procedure, or one lawfully dispensing a drug.
- See more at: http://www.texmed.org/Template.aspx?id=2688#sthash.zsM21FEt.dpuf

It seems to exempt health care providers.

 

[lisser]

"According to the medical records we have been provided....

More questions than answers for me.

How recent were the tests?
What tests were performed?
Has a MD reviewed the medical records?
Etc.

Moo


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A question that I've been wondering too, is who performed the tests/ultrasounds? An obstetrician? A maternal fetal medicine radiologist? If they didn't have the correct specialist perform the tests, especially the ultrasound, the results can be skewed.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

But that's not the section of the statute that applies. That is the Advance Medical Directive section. The section of the statute that applies here is the Medical Power of Attorney.



The statutes regarding Medical Power of Attorney never even use or define the term "patient" only "primary"

It's a weak legal argument. If that's the only argument they present, the judge can find it all moot, because Marlise did not leave an advance medical directive, only a medical power of attorney.

What would medical power of attorney have to do with anything, when Texas law accepts brain death criteria. It all boils down to the brain death law. If she is deceased then the vent is removed. She is not on life support if she is deceased, she is on death support. The law should end there. That should trump anything else. If she were in a coma it would be a totally different story.

 

[dh109977]

A question that I've been wondering too, is who performed the tests/ultrasounds? An obstetrician? A maternal fetal medicine radiologist? If they didn't have the correct specialist perform the tests, especially the ultrasound, the results can be skewed.

Right just like the pic someone posted above. If the lawyers received the medical records and just looked at them they might not look right.

I want to know if they are guessing or they had a Dr look at the records. I might be grasping for hope here. But sadly after listening to the lawyer for Jahi's family and remembering the days of Beaz. I am skeptical of lawyers.

 

[faw720]

Could the lawyer be "playing" towards public sympathy in making the deformities sound worse than they actually are?

And if there are lower limb deformities, would they not have occurred before the embolism? She had that happen at 14 weeks. By 14 weeks gestation, the lower limbs and genitalia are fully formed. And depending on the severity of the hydrocephalus, it can resolve itself by the third trimester, presuming of course that Marlise would be kept on the ventilator that long.

I would really like to hear from the Dr's exactly what this baby has been diagnosed with. It usually takes more than one ultrasound to definitively diagnose abnormalities.

I don't think we will hear from any of the doctors involved in this case. Oh, maybe 50 years from now, one or more may write a book or speak out. In a way similar to the JFK assignation in that at the time none of the doctors spoke out their assessment of the situation. Here we are 50 years later & you occasionally see an article or a quote from those attending physicians. It's just too much of a 'hot potato' to speak about at the time of the event.

 

[LaborDayRN]

I don't think we will hear from any of the doctors involved in this case. Oh, maybe 50 years from now, one or more may write a book or speak out. In a way similar to the JFK assignation in that at the time none of the doctors spoke out their assessment of the situation. Here we are 50 years later & you occasionally see an article or a quote from those attending physicians. It's just too much of a 'hot potato' to speak about at the time of the event.

Actually, they are unable to speak do to patient confidentiality laws.

 

[LaborDayRN]

Right just like the pic someone posted above. If the lawyers received the medical records and just looked at them they might not look right.

I want to know if they are guessing or they had a Dr look at the records. I might be grasping for hope here. But sadly after listening to the lawyer for Jahi's family and remembering the days of Beaz. I am skeptical of lawyers.

In general, a person with no training in radiology would look at this type of ultrasound (for medical evaluation) and not be able to discern a great deal. The information may have actually been provided in a verbal or written form.
The ultrasound itself was more than likely preformed by a perinatologist (maternal fetal medicine specialist who. They specialize in high risk pregnancies). MOO

 

[ohiogirl]

I will be anxious to see if the judge rules for the family after tomorrow's hearing, if the hospital will appeal. Hopefully not.

 

[Elainera]

I think there is no way that the judge will rule to turn life support off. The law is quite clear. The abnormalities of the fetus shouldn't factor in his decision.

Not that I'd actually agree with such a decision, just saying. I don't know what I would decide right now. As I said before, I'm hoping her heart will just stop now.

 

[alwaysonmymind]

I wonder if the hearing will be open to the media/public.
We may not hear anything from the hospital if the Judge closes the hearing.
Moo


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[Karmady]

I would hope but they are lawyers, and they are batting for the father. I just know that iirc the hospital is not allowed to talk, so 2, two days before court the public is informed about abnormalities from the lawyers for the father. I would love to think (believe) that lawyers wouldn't do that (lie) about the abnormalities but I have also been reading some of Christopher Dolan's claims that don't add up so I don't know. jmo idk

Yes, I had his statements in mind, in particular. But notice how Dolan tends to confine his inflammatory comments to matters of opinion or legal arguments. When it comes to facts, he's equivocal and vague. For example, he always refers to what the family believes wrt to what the hospital did wrong in connection with the original surgery as opposed to coming right out and saying what they did and whether it was wrong or not.

On the other hand, saying that this baby is deformed is an unequivocal statement of fact, not a legal argument or matter of opinion. Jmo, but I have little doubt it's a true statement.

 

[ohiogirl]

I think there is no way that the judge will rule to turn life support off. The law is quite clear. The abnormalities of the fetus shouldn't factor in his decision.

Not that I'd actually agree with such a decision, just saying. I don't know what I would decide right now. As I said before, I'm hoping her heart will just stop now.

I will have to disagree. I don't think the law is clear at all. jmo

 

[Elley Mae]

Attorneys representing the family of a brain-dead Texas woman being kept alive because she is pregnant said Wednesday that the fetus is “distinctly abnormal.”

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...distinctly-abnormal-lawyers-article-1.1588511

bbm using that word leads to thing they saw (visual) like a sonogram. jmo

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/american_english/distinctly

1.1(used for emphasis) in a way that is very noticeable or apparent; decidedly: 'two distinctly different cultures' 'he looked distinctly uncomfortable'