TX - pregnant wife unresponsive on life support, husband hopes to fulfill her wishes

[QueenD]

@AP: CORRECTS TIME AND DATE: Judge orders removal of woman from life support by 5 p.m. CST Monday (not within the hour): http://t.co/6yMwqWv09P

 

[gitana1]

What clarification did they need? The law is the law. It was very clear. Hospital can turn off support despite what family wishes.
I have no idea why judge allowed Jahi to be taken some place else.
Doesn't seem to be supported by the law at all.

Each case has to do, on a practical level, with the families' wishes and whether hospitals have a right to intervene. In both of these cases, the courts decided that the family's wishes would be followed. It's not just "the law is the law." To me, this law is very clear but laws are generally open to some Interpretation and exceptions to the law xan be made. If this situation had been reversed, and the baby closer to viability and whole and well developed, the judge may have found a compelling reason to veer from the law and force the hospital to keep life support going.

IMO, these are private, family matters and hospitals should not be allowed to go against patient or family wishes except in very limited circumstances. No hospital should have the power to force a family to pull the plug or force a family to Continue life support unless they obtain court authority under specific circumstances. I have yet to see a judge order life support to continue or to be discontinued against the families' wishes in one of these cases. That makes sense to me.

 

[Elainera]

If hospital appeals, it's a good bet the fetus will be born. It has about a week and half to go befofe considered viable. No way all the appeals will take less than one and a half weeks.

If they appeal and thereby skirt the Monday 5pm deadline, can they remove the fetus once it's viable, or do they need consent from the father?

 

[gitana1]

If hospital appeals, it's a good bet the fetus will be born. It has about a week and half to go befofe considered viable. No way all the appeals will take less than one and a half weeks.

Perhaps if it was a normal fetus this would be true. But it's not. It could be born, that's true, but based on what K_Z stated, I think it could be born dead. I don't know how viable this fetus can be.

 

[faw720]

Judge: Marlise Muñoz to be removed from life support

The judge agreed, saying the state law does not apply to Marlise Muñoz "because she is deceased."

Judge Wallace said Mrs. Muñoz must be removed from life support by 5 p.m. Monday.

Fort Worth attorney Trent Loftin, who isn't connected to the case, said he believes Friday's hearing in front of District Judge R.H. Wallace likely won't be the end of the case.

"I think whatever the judge decides, the other side will appeal to the second court of appeals and eventually to the supreme court of the state of Texas," Loftin said.

http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/Judge-Marlise-Munoz-to-be-removed-from-life-support-241887051.html

I hope they do not appeal! Let her go!

I also hope they do not appeal. Perhaps they will not appeal because this is election year in Texas. There is a woman running for governor on the Democratic ticket. JMO, she won't win, but the Republicans don't want to chase a bunch of voters to her camp.

Saw up post somewhere that the DA's office will issue a statement later on today, so I guess we'll find out their plans then.

 

[mck16]

A little OT and Graphic, but just thinking if this is what Jahi's family could be expriencing.

'In an affidavit filed Thursday in court, Erick Munoz said little to him now is recognizable about Marlise. Her bones crack when her stiff limbs move. Her usual scent has been replaced by the "smell of death." And her once lively eyes have become "soulless."

"Over these past two months, nothing about my wife indicates she is alive," Erick Munoz said. "... What sits in front of me is a deteriorating body."'

 

[StephanieH]

This is so horrible it is just beyond. Especially since Texas also has a law that states terminally ill people who do not have insurance can be pulled AGAINST their own wishes. I think this woman is beyond terminally ill...she is dead.

As for Jahi, no, I don't think families get to decide when a person is dead. Not a single medical professional said that Jahi was alive. Not one. So forcing a hospital to spend funds on a dead person just because the family refuses to believe they are dead is beyond ridiculous. We could have entire floors of decomposing bodies while people who can recover are denied the ventilators.

 

[Softail]

The judge said "By Monday at 5:00 PM". So what is to stop them from doing it sooner? :waitasec: I suppose the only thing that could, is if the hospital appeals. If they don't then why wait until Monday? :waitasec:

 

[Softail]

GET THE LATEST @TarrantDAOffice

Judge orders Marlise Munoz removed from life-sustaining measures. Order: http://bit.ly/1fjlFcz
Statement from JPS:: http://bit.ly/1bnnAK8

 

[faw720]

One thing of interest to me. Our local nbcdfw station conducted a poll via online or telephone response. They were asking for people to vote if they approved or did not approve of the judge's decision. Now I realize that this is not exactly a scientific poll, but here are the results. 91% responded that the judge made the correct decision & 9% said that he did not make the correct decision.

 

[Elley Mae]

One thing of interest to me. Our local nbcdfw station conducted a poll via online or telephone response. They were asking for people to vote if they approved or did not approve of the judge's decision. Now I realize that this is not exactly a scientific poll, but here are the results. 91% responded that the judge made the correct decision & 9% said that he did not make the correct decision.

I don't know how to do a poll here, but it would be interesting to see.

 

[ceecee30]

I was so hopeful that the baby was ok, knowing that it wasn't ok and was abnormally developed I couldn't agree more with the judges ruling, it would be far better to not put this baby through pain for an entire life and let the family grieve.

Here's hoping there's no appeal

 

[gitana1]

I'm pretty confident about why they did what they did. We can agree to disagree

If that was the case, if the hospital merely did it to have clarification, they would have no reason to appeal, right?

A little OT and Graphic, but just thinking if this is what Jahi's family could be expriencing.

'In an affidavit filed Thursday in court, Erick Munoz said little to him now is recognizable about Marlise. Her bones crack when her stiff limbs move. Her usual scent has been replaced by the "smell of death." And her once lively eyes have become "soulless."

"Over these past two months, nothing about my wife indicates she is alive," Erick Munoz said. "... What sits in front of me is a deteriorating body."'

It is gruesome. Horrific. But in this case, the hospital forced that hideous experience on the family. In Jahi's case, it's what the family wants.

This is so horrible it is just beyond. Especially since Texas also has a law that states terminally ill people who do not have insurance can be pulled AGAINST their own wishes. I think this woman is beyond terminally ill...she is dead.

As for Jahi, no, I don't think families get to decide when a person is dead. Not a single medical professional said that Jahi was alive. Not one. So forcing a hospital to spend funds on a dead person just because the family refuses to believe they are dead is beyond ridiculous. We could have entire floors of decomposing bodies while people who can recover are denied the ventilators.

Well, families do get to decide when a person is dead...at least in certain states. I think a law that says, listen, if you can find a facility, we will transfer the brain dead corpse, still attached, to that facility, fine. Again, to me it comes down to personal choice and belief.

What is life? What is death? Those are legal issues and scientific ones but they are also personal and religious ones. So, in many cases, they should be personal decisions. Neither the state nor a hospital should be allowed, IMO, to make decisions regarding my body or my incapacitated child or other loved one's body against my (or their) will, except in certain very specific cases, when the overall harm is so grave that the personal beliefs of the family must be overridden.

As to having entire floors littered with decomposing bodies while people who can recover are denied ventilators, just because a family refuses to believe their loved one is dead, with utmost respect, nonsense.

There is a reason cases like Jahi's (2013), like Motl Brody's (2008), Jesse Koochin's (2004), and Teresa Hamilton's (1994), do not come up that often. That's because most people understand and trust what the doctors tell them regarding clinical death, flat lining and understand the science that proves there will be no recovery. Most people do not have religious objections to ending support even if they have that understanding. Most people, even if they had religious doubts, would not want to watch their loved one's corpse decompose in front of their eyes.

There is no way this kind of rare, and tragic phenomena will become a trend. Further, it is highly unusual for a corpse to survive long with artificial life support anyhow. Sure, there's been a few cases but that is just not he norm. And coupled with the fact that few people have objections to brain dead people being deemed legally dead, there is no risk to patients who need ventilators abut are denied because rows of corpses are using them.

It's not a good argument against allowing families to decide, IMO. And neither is cost. The hospital can easily bill the family for the cost but as I have stated, costs are artificially generated in this country. And thus artificially inflated. That's why the exact same care and prescriptions are so much cheaper pretty much everywhere else in the world.

Finally, I think compassion needs to be the rule in these cases. Families should not be forced to compromise their beliefs except in certain, specific circumstances. No institution or government should be allowed to make such decisions about a person's body except in extreme situations and with a court order. That's :moo:.

 

[mck16]

I was so hopeful that the baby was ok, knowing that it wasn't ok and was abnormally developed I couldn't agree more with the judges ruling, it would be far better to not put this baby through pain for an entire life and let the family grieve.

Here's hoping there's no appeal

Okay, so if they remove everything from the mother and the baby is still alive, will this essentially kill the baby? Sorry, but there is no other way to word this. ty

 

[gitana1]

GET THE LATEST @TarrantDAOffice

Judge orders Marlise Munoz removed from life-sustaining measures. Order: http://bit.ly/1fjlFcz
Statement from JPS:: http://bit.ly/1bnnAK8

Oh gosh. They are consulting with the DA? They need to just stop. Leave this poor family in peace. Gosh. Enough already. I'm so confused by their insistence here.

It must be some kind of financial issue, right? I mean in Jahi's case, the hospital was likely afraid that Medicare would not compensate for care of a dead person's body. So they have a financial incentive to stop life support. But here, what's up? And i researched the hospital. It's headed by a guy who has fostered contraception programs and has ties to people from both sides of the aisle. But this has to be about financial contributions or something, right?

 

[gitana1]

Okay, so if they remove everything from the mother and the baby is still alive, will this essentially kill the baby? Sorry, but there is no other way to word this. ty

I think if they stop life support, of course the fetus will not be able to live because it will not be connected to a life source from the mother, it is not a viable fetus and the baby is horribly deformed and with a host of other issues besides. So I really can;t see how the baby could survive once life support is ended.

K_Z? can you explain to us?

 

[jjenny]

Okay, so if they remove everything from the mother and the baby is still alive, will this essentially kill the baby? Sorry, but there is no other way to word this. ty

The fetus isn't considered viable yet.
But yes, it will cease to exist.

 

[Elainera]

Okay, so if they remove everything from the mother and the baby is still alive, will this essentially kill the baby? Sorry, but there is no other way to word this. ty

Yes of course it will.

 

[mck16]

Oh gosh. They are consulting with the DA? They need to just stop. Leave this poor family in peace. Gosh. Enough already. I'm so confused by their insistence here.

It must be some kind of financial issue, right? I mean in Jahi's case, the hospital was likely afraid that Medicare would not compensate for care of a dead person's body. So they have a financial incentive to stop life support. But here, what's up? And i researched the hospital. It's headed by a guy who has fostered contraception programs and has ties to people from both sides of the aisle. But this has to be about financial contributions or something, right?

Maybe it has to do with the ethical fate of the unborn child and how it will effect it if it is still alive. It really isn't just about the dead person is it. jmo

 

[jjenny]

I think if they stop life support, of course the fetus will not be able to live because it will not be connected to a life source from the mother, it is not a viable fetus and the baby is horribly deformed and with a host of other issues besides. So I really can;t see how the baby could survive once life support is ended.

K_Z? can you explain to us?

Even if it were viable, it would die if life support is removed from the mother.
Because it's stuck inside. Think if you leave an infant inside the locked box. Is it going to live? Of course not.
But it's not considered viable yet.