TX - Sandra Bland, 28, found dead in jail cell, Waller County, 13 July 2015 #2

[katydid23]

I asked my SO just that today. He's losing his patience with my questions about law enforcement training, techniques etc but he did say they teach you in the academy, which is about four months long here in CA, how to deal with it. But then he said, after those short four months, you get out and you have an FTO (field training officer). His FTO's advice to him was "handle aggression with aggression." He gave the example that if he was on a traffic stop and someone said "Here, take my f'ing license and registration" and throws it out the car at him, that could be construed, in his FTO's opinion as "aggression" and he could then haul the "aggressor" out of the car and meet aggression with aggression. I about threw up. Hopefully things have changed since he went through his FTO training some 20+ years ago and that's not the norm. But he did emphasize the academy training is short and "things change" once you're out on the street actually dealing with people day after day. We ended up in our usual "discussion" about law enforcement and their techniques...

I get the strong sense he fervently wishes I had never read about the Sandra Bland case...

So let's take that example. You walk up and politely ask a driver for his paperwork and then the driver says "Here, take my f'ing license and registration" and throws it out the car at you. What then. Do you bend over, putting yourself in a vulnerable position,, and pick it up off the street, and allow the interaction between you and the driver to begin that way? I would not.

 

[kimlynn]

So let's take that example. You walk up and politely ask a driver for his paperwork and then the driver says "Here, take my f'ing license and registration" and throws it out the car at you. What then. Do you bend over, putting yourself in a vulnerable position,, and pick it up off the street, and allow the interaction between you and the driver to begin that way? I would not.

SB said she was waiting to sign the ticket. What she thought was a ticket anyway. IMO

 

[branwynbreeze]

I asked my SO just that today. He's losing his patience with my questions about law enforcement training, techniques etc but he did say they teach you in the academy, which is about four months long here in CA, how to deal with it. But then he said, after those short four months, you get out and you have an FTO (field training officer). His FTO's advice to him was "handle aggression with aggression." He gave the example that if he was on a traffic stop and someone said "Here, take my f'ing license and registration" and throws it out the car at him, that could be construed, in his FTO's opinion as "aggression" and he could then haul the "aggressor" out of the car and meet aggression with aggression. I about threw up. Hopefully things have changed since he went through his FTO training some 20+ years ago and that's not the norm. But he did emphasize the academy training is short and "things change" once you're out on the street actually dealing with people day after day. We ended up in our usual "discussion" about law enforcement and their techniques...

I get the strong sense he fervently wishes I had never read about the Sandra Bland case...

LAPD is requiring LEO to take this class:
http://mynewsla.com/crime/2015/07/13/lapd-holds-officer-training-to-focus-on-preservation-of-life/

The training will focus on “preservation of life,” which includes looking at “what is legitimate use-of-force” and the “goal of police use-of- force,” Beck said.

 

[katydid23]

I find it helpful to look at both sides and determine what is supported and what is not. Remember the officer pulled his taser and threatened her before he pulled her out of the vehicle. So it's possible that simply defending herself became an assault charge.

I am biased because I have family members who are in LE. And I see the other side of what the Guardian is reporting. I don't think anyone here has any idea how disrespectful, rude and antagonistic, many people are that LE has to deal with. Nor do people understand how vulnerable cops feel when standing alongside a traffic stop. They have no idea if the driver has a weapon or an agenda or has crazy ideas. It strongly colors their behavior and reactions.

 

[4senthia]

She had enough time to down thc in whatever form that was small enough.
Has anyone yet seen an inventory of what was in her car? Or does anyone know for sure that she had nothing to drink (h20, cola,etc) available while she was still in the car?
Many years ago I was a big time friend of Mary Jane's and several times I had to eat the evidence. Course we aren't talking "quarter pounder" here.
I'm much older and wiser now yet I see maybe even more people in my age range smoking causally. Stuff like white rhino. That's dangerous wicked stuff and can trigger psychosis at higher levels.
Sandra had a huge amount of cannabis in her system is what I have read at reputable links sited here.
Hopefully people aren't going to argue for years over this like they did by trying to say Diane Schuler wasn't really drunk.
Bland was combative but not under the influence @the time of intake. It took some time for the extremely potent strain/wax to hit her system.
jmho

 

[kimlynn]

rsbm -

The Guardian is one of Europe's finest newspapers. You may not be familiar with the way the press works in Europe -- most newspapers have political slants, and they do not hide them or deny them. It's just the way things are.

I thought it was a very good read and seemed to have the perspective from all sides. Also gave a lot of background of the various players which I found helpful and interesting.IMO

 

[AliceInPain]

Now you know. Try being a smart next time you are pulled over and see how that plays out. Reasonable people take the medicine and sort it out later.

I come from a part of the world where we respect the police because we know they protect us from criminals and keep us safe.

If I was pulled over when I had done nothing illegal and was no threat to anyone elses or my own life I'd probably expect to be asked if I had seen something suspicious "over there", unrelated to myself.
I think I'd be confused if they started questioning my lifestyle and hating on my choices, such as smoking.

I don't think ordinary, non-criminal people just living our lives should ever have any reason to fear the police. If it's not us they are protecting then what is their purpose?

 

[katydid23]

SB said she was waiting to sign the ticket. What she thought was a ticket anyway. IMO

I was not talking about SB. I was answering a hypothetical by another poster.

 

[bluesneakers]

I am biased because I have family members who are in LE. And I see the other side of what the Guardian is reporting. I don't think anyone here has any idea how disrespectful, rude and antagonistic, many people are that LE has to deal with. Nor do people understand how vulnerable cops feel when standing alongside a traffic stop. They have no idea if the driver has a weapon or an agenda or has crazy ideas. It strongly colors their behavior and reactions.

I think you're wrong on this one.

 

[cinsbythesea]

So let's take that example. You walk up and politely ask a driver for his paperwork and then the driver says "Here, take my f'ing license and registration" and throws it out the car at you. What then. Do you bend over, putting yourself in a vulnerable position,, and pick it up off the street, and allow the interaction between you and the driver to begin that way? I would not.

He followed his FTO's orders. He didn't have any bruises on him from bending over and picking up a driver's license but the driver sure couldn't say the same thing after they were done "tuning him up" in my SO's words. All "justified" of course.

I do understand your point though. Years ago while working in a pharmacy someone dropped a bag through the pharmacy window. I went to pick it up to hand it back only to find myself staring into the barrel of a gun. So I do know how quickly these things can happen.

Part of the reason I am so knee jerk about this case is because he's told me so many stories of what cops have done to people and gotten away with it - their word against the suspect's word - that I have never trusted cops again. In this case- we have VIDEO of a cop who is clearly demonstrating he's on a power trip and escalating a situation that should have been a simple traffic stop into something ugly - that ultimately, unbelievably ends up in the woman's death - albeit not by his hands. It haunts me.

 

[popsicle]

Why wasn't she charged with that offense then? Or wait a minute, is that what the assault charge was about. Did she get charged for assaulting a "peace" officer for telling him he had no right to tell her to get out of the car?

I mean, that is when he placed her under arrest. Holy bologna ! Is that what LE is now defining as assault on them?

The arrest warrant explains why he wanted her to step out of the car, why he cuffed her etc.

http://documents.latimes.com/sandra-bland-pc-affidavit-and-magistrate-orders/

 

[AliceInPain]

There should be no battling egos if you're not a criminal. The police man should be there to protect you.
I have never met a bad cop in my life. This story makes me sad...

 

[kimlynn]

I was not talking about SB. I was answering a hypothetical by another poster.

I know I just wondered if you thought SB was as bad as someone that would throw a DL at LE. Because you used that as an example. IMO

 

[katydid23]

I think you're wrong on this one.

How so? You don't believe the public can be rude, aggressive and antagonistic towards cops?

 

[katydid23]

I know I just wondered if you thought SB was as bad as someone that would throw an a DL at LE. Because you used that as an example. IMO

I didn't use it as an example. The other poster did. I was asking what she thought a cop should do in that case.

 

[bluesneakers]

How so? You don't believe the public can be rude, aggressive and antagonistic towards cops?

You said 'I don't think anyone here has any idea how disrespectful, rude and antagonistic, many people are that LE has to deal with.' I think that's too much of a generalization on a forum like this with participants you don't know.

 

[kimlynn]

I am biased because I have family members who are in LE. And I see the other side of what the Guardian is reporting. I don't think anyone here has any idea how disrespectful, rude and antagonistic, many people are that LE has to deal with. Nor do people understand how vulnerable cops feel when standing alongside a traffic stop. They have no idea if the driver has a weapon or an agenda or has crazy ideas. It strongly colors their behavior and reactions.

I'm sure this will surprise you but I have a great deal of respect for those that put their life on the line everyday.Growing up I actually wanted to be a fire fighter and was so sad to find I was to short/OT
My uncle and cousin were LE in my city.
But wrong is wrong and it's obvious to me that this was wrong. It's in glaring black and white complete with audio for all to see. IMO

 

[katydid23]

The arrest warrant explains why he wanted her to step out of the car, why he cuffed her etc.

http://documents.latimes.com/sandra-bland-pc-affidavit-and-magistrate-orders/

That is what my son said is probably the reason he wanted her out of the cAr. He probably began having the feeling she was going to possibly grab a weapon or something weird. Or he thought she was drunk or high and wanted to do a further investigation.

 

[katydid23]

You said 'I don't think anyone here has any idea how disrespectful, rude and antagonistic, many people are that LE has to deal with.' I think that's too much of a generalization on a forum like this with participants you don't know.

It seems to me that the prevailing attitude here is that she was heroic for being rude towards him because he was an evil, controlling, abusive monster that is responsible for her death and is happy about it.

 

[katydid23]

I'm sure this will surprise you but I have a great deal of respect for those that put their life on the line everyday.Growing up I actually wanted to be a fire fighter and was so sad to find I was to short/OT
My uncle and cousin were LE in my city.
But wrong is wrong and it's obvious to me that this was wrong. It's in glaring black and white complete with audio for all to see. IMO

I have said several times that the cop was WRONG and he messed up by over reacting. My anger was with the silly accusations that he killed her and the jailers covered it up.