TX - Sandra Bland, 28, found dead in jail cell, Waller County, 13 July 2015 #2

[Cappuccino]

I hate the term public servant

I didn't mean it in any kind of a derogatory way, its just a literal description of what police officers are - people whose salaries are paid by the public purse.

Different terms have different connotations to us all, I suppose - personally I find it demeaning to hear citizens described as taxpayers, but maybe that's just me.

 

[Confusion]

Was there any evidence that she had a seizure?

I haven't heard of any, but I also said that I wasn't saying she had one in the post you quoted. Now be gentle with me tonight, I'm tired and slow! (please...)

 

[katydid23]

I haven't heard of any, but I also said that I wasn't saying she had one in the post you quoted. Now be gentle with me tonight, I'm tired and slow! (please...)

:hug:

 

[KaaBoom]

Assessing the Legality of
Sandra Bland’s Arrest


In a traffic stop, is it legal for an officer to order a driver to put out a cigarette and exit the car?

Ms. Bland has a right to smoke in her car, but Trooper Encinia could argue that the cigarette was interfering with legitimate police business. Since he had already processed the papers, however, “I don’t see a good reason,” said Robert Weisberg, a criminal procedure expert and law professor at Stanford University.
During a traffic stop, a police officer has the right to ask a driver to get out of the car even for a non-arrestable offense, as a way of securing his own safety. The officer has almost complete discretion and the driver is legally obligated to get out when asked. “He has control over the location of drivers,” Mr. Weisberg said. “It is equal to an officer patting you down to see if you have a gun.”
In this case, Mr. Weisberg said, there is no evidence that Trooper Encinia feared for his safety. He would have to argue that Ms. Bland’s refusal to put the cigarette out gave him the impression that she was violent. If Trooper Encinia had feared for his safety, he would not have walked away from the car for five minutes, Mr. Weisberg said.

Assessing the Legality of Sandra Bland’s Arrest

 

[Confusion]

Just for clarification, I don't think there's anything wrong with being a public servant, or even with calling members of LE, FD, etc that. I just meant that I hate referring to someone as my servant, and I am a member of the public. Sorry for not being clearer.

 

[Montjoy]

Just for clarification, I don't think there's anything wrong with being a public servant, or even with calling members of LE, FD, etc that. I just meant that I hate referring to someone as my servant, and I am a member of the public. Sorry for not being clearer.

Yeah, I totally get that, and respect it. I just wanted to show you a different perspective from the other side of the fence. Just as some might feel an honor in being a servant of God, some of us might feel the same way about serving the public.

 

[katydid23]

Assessing the Legality of Sandra Bland’s Arrest



In a traffic stop, is it legal for an officer to order a driver to put out a cigarette and exit the car?

Ms. Bland has a right to smoke in her car, but Trooper Encinia could argue that the cigarette was interfering with legitimate police business. Since he had already processed the papers, however, “I don’t see a good reason,” said Robert Weisberg, a criminal procedure expert and law professor at Stanford University.
During a traffic stop, a police officer has the right to ask a driver to get out of the car even for a non-arrestable offense, as a way of securing his own safety. The officer has almost complete discretion and the driver is legally obligated to get out when asked. “He has control over the location of drivers,” Mr. Weisberg said. “It is equal to an officer patting you down to see if you have a gun.”
In this case, Mr. Weisberg said, there is no evidence that Trooper Encinia feared for his safety. He would have to argue that Ms. Bland’s refusal to put the cigarette out gave him the impression that she was violent. If Trooper Encinia had feared for his safety, he would not have walked away from the car for five minutes, Mr. Weisberg said.

THANK YOU!!!!!
Ok :

"During a traffic stop, a police officer has the right to ask a driver to get out of the car even for a non-arrestable offense, as a way of securing his own safety. The officer has almost complete discretion and the driver is legally obligated to get out when asked. “He has control over the location of drivers,” Mr. Weisberg said. “It is equal to an officer patting you down to see if you have a gun.”


OKAY, I agree with all of the above^^^^

"In this case, Mr. Weisberg said, there is no evidence that Trooper Encinia feared for his safety. He would have to argue that Ms. Bland’s refusal to put the cigarette out gave him the impression that she was violent. If Trooper Encinia had feared for his safety, he would not have walked away from the car for five minutes, Mr. Weisberg said."

The bolded above is just Weisberg's opinion. He does not know if the officer had suddenly begun to feel something was off with her. Not putting out the cig told him she was not cooperative AND it was possibly being used to mask a smell.

When I showed it to the people that I know in LE, they thought he might have begun to wonder if she was hiding the smell of pot or alcohol and the way she was acting seemed like she might be high. At that point he might have decided to investigate further. Especially because she had out of state plates and Texas is a hub of guns/drug running.

SO the officer might have felt unsafe if he thought she was doing something illegal and was trying to hide it.

The first portion is the most vital information. =During a traffic stop, a police officer has the right to ask a driver to get out of the car even for a non-arrestable offense, as a way of securing his own safety.

 

[Cappuccino]

THANK YOU!!!!!
Ok :

"During a traffic stop, a police officer has the right to ask a driver to get out of the car even for a non-arrestable offense, as a way of securing his own safety. The officer has almost complete discretion and the driver is legally obligated to get out when asked. “He has control over the location of drivers,” Mr. Weisberg said. “It is equal to an officer patting you down to see if you have a gun.”


OKAY, I agree with all of the above^^^^

"In this case, Mr. Weisberg said, there is no evidence that Trooper Encinia feared for his safety. He would have to argue that Ms. Bland’s refusal to put the cigarette out gave him the impression that she was violent. If Trooper Encinia had feared for his safety, he would not have walked away from the car for five minutes, Mr. Weisberg said."

The bolded above is just Weisberg's opinion. He does not know if the officer had suddenly begun to feel something was off with her. Not putting out the cig told him she was not cooperative AND it was possibly being used to mask a smell.

When I showed it to the people that I know in LE, they thought he might have begun to wonder if she was hiding the smell of pot or alcohol and the way she was acting seemed like she might be high. At that point he might have decided to investigate further. Especially because she had out of state plates and Texas is a hub of guns/drug running.


The first portion is the most vital information. =During a traffic stop, a police officer has the right to ask a driver to get out of the car even for a non-arrestable offense, as a way of securing his own safety.

Yes that's all well and good. So when he asked her to step out of the car and she gave him attitude, the proper response was something like this....

"Ma'am as a police officer I have the right to tell you to step out of your car and you have a legal obligation to comply. Now step out of your car."

Not GET OUT OF THE CAR OR I'LL LIGHT YOU UP.

 

[Rocco]

I agree with you Ranch, we all should be doing more to encourage that kind of behaviour.

But nobody is promoting it's your right to be a jerk to cops, just pointing out that it isn't illegal and there are more constructive ways of dealing with it than what we saw from this former officer. JMO

Sure they are. Someone just posted: 'As long as you don't break the law it IS your right to be a jerk to cops' How embarrassing to think anyone has the right to be a jerk to a cop because they know he has to take it, a waitress because the main source of her income, a tip, is contingent on keeping you happy or a fast food worker who got your order wrong and doesn't want to get in trouble with their boss because they need the job. No one has the right to be a jerk to anyone else just because they can.

 

[human]

It kind of IS about power and control if you are a Law ENFORCEMENT officer and are on the street, putting yourself in harm's way while doing so.

I think this may be a stumbling block because power and control issues are those of people who need counseling. I did post the wheel of abuse which is about power and control

 

[KaaBoom]

C

Of course I can't find a link, but I remember reading the day this video was released that the female officer's dash cam memory was full. I think the implication was that there is no video from her car, but they didn't come right out and say it..

That was very convenient. The only camera that would have shown what really happened, didn't have enough memory. The cover up just keeps going on, and on, and on.

 

[Cappuccino]

Sure they are. Someone just posted: 'As long as you don't break the law it IS your right to be a jerk to cops' How embarrassing to think anyone has the right to be a jerk to a cop because they know he has to take it, a waitress because the main source of her income, a tip, is contingent on keeping you happy or a fast food worker who got your order wrong and doesn't want to get in trouble with their boss because they need the job. No one has the right to be a jerk to anyone else just because they can.

Legally speaking, they do. Its a bad way to behave to other people, but if you work with the public you have to be able to deal with a certain amount of bad behaviour in your working day, within legal limits.

 

[Montjoy]

Sure they are. Someone just posted: 'As long as you don't break the law it IS your right to be a jerk to cops' How embarrassing to think anyone has the right to be a jerk to a cop because they know he has to take it, a waitress because the main source of her income, a tip, is contingent on keeping you happy or a fast food worker who got your order wrong and doesn't want to get in trouble with their boss because they need the job. No one has the right to be a jerk to anyone else just because they can.

I wouldn't say that it 'is right' to be a jerk to anyone other than in exceptional circumstances. But what is your understanding of the right of free speech? Are people legally obligated to be deferential to anyone in a position of authority? (Let's be clear -- we're talking about the USA here, and not talking about what is a good thing to do, but what is allowed by legal right.)

 

[bluesneakers]

Just for clarification, I don't think there's anything wrong with being a public servant, or even with calling members of LE, FD, etc that. I just meant that I hate referring to someone as my servant, and I am a member of the public. Sorry for not being clearer.

That's funny because in my mind it's so separate. I think of public servants as being in public service, or in service to the public, like someone in a public service position is a public servant but I never consider them servants. Language is interesting sometimes.

 

[katydid23]

Yes that's all well and good. So when he asked her to step out of the car and she gave him attitude, the proper response was something like this....

"Ma'am as a police officer I have the right to tell you to step out of your car and you have a legal obligation to comply. Now step out of your car."

Not GET OUT OF THE CAR OR I'LL LIGHT YOU UP.

I totally agree with you. He was a jerky idiot. But he was not doing anything illegal by asking her a dozen times to exit her vehicle.

 

[katydid23]

I think this may be a stumbling block because power and control issues are those of people who need counseling. I did post the wheel of abuse which is about power and control

The wheel of abuse is concerning ABUSE. It is possible for someone to wield power and assert control within the proper bounds.

When a woman is being abused by her abuser and she calls 911, does she expect someone to come to her home and be powerful and control the situation?

 

[Cappuccino]

I totally agree with you. He was a jerky idiot. But he was not doing anything illegal by asking her a dozen times to exit her vehicle.

No, but I expect a bit more of police officers than merely not breaking the law. In fact, I'd expect more of a burger flipper at McDonald's than merely not breaking the law, never mind a police officer.

He didn't do his job properly, and he should be sacked. A half competent shop assistant could have handled that woman better than he did.

 

[katydid23]

No, but I expect a bit more of police officers than merely not breaking the law. In fact, I'd expect more of a burger flipper at McDonald's than merely not breaking the law, never mind a police officer.

He didn't do his job properly, and he should be sacked. A half competent shop assistant could have handled that woman better than he did.

I don't know if he should be fired or not. I think he should be suspended and demoted. But he did not do anything illegal AFAIK. He lost his temper and allowed himself to be baited and that was weak on his part. But he did not cover up her murder, as many have claimed.

 

[Cappuccino]

I don't know if he should be fired or not. I think he should be suspended and demoted. But he did not do anything illegal AFAIK. He lost his temper and allowed himself to be baited and that was weak on his part. But he did not cover up her murder, as many have claimed.

Personally, I haven't seen anybody claim that he covered up her murder and certainly I haven't claimed that, (nor do I think it).

IMO he should be sacked because of what I saw on that dashcam vid, not because of anything to do with her death. The man I saw on that video was a petty little bully who shouldn't be allowed any authority over the public at all, let alone one that gives him a tazer and a gun.

 

[Montjoy]

He lost his temper and allowed himself to be baited and that was weak on his part.

rsbm
No offense, but I'm not sure why this offends me. It almost sounds to me like saying "He allowed himself to be seduced, and so he had sex with her", which would seem to be making the man responsible, but it actually makes the woman more responsible.

Let's not make the officer a victim here -- he was the one who had all of the power. He made the choices -- he wasn't seduced, coerced, or conned.