TX - Sandra Bland, 28, found dead in jail cell, Waller County, 13 July 2015 #3

[sonjay]

I don't know the numbers but I believe when most people decide to end their lives they are ill and would not want to commit suicide otherwise.

By definition, the only people we can actually ask what they intended when they attempted suicide are those who failed at doing so.

There may well be fundamental differences in mental state, intention, etc., between those who fail and those who succeed. By definition, we can't ask those who succeeded. So, we can never really know for sure.

 

[bluesneakers]

By definition, the only people we can actually ask what they intended when they attempted suicide are those who failed at doing so.

There may well be fundamental differences in mental state, intention, etc., between those who fail and those who succeed. By definition, we can't ask those who succeeded. So, we can never really know for sure.

What about people have almost-succeeded, like revived at the scene, or woken up after three days in a coma, happy to be alive and regretting their decision (though not always immediately)? Or who have made serious attempts and after years of treatment were thankful they hadn't been able to complete suicide? If you think people are of sound mind when they decide to kill themselves I would assume you think suicide prevention is pointless. Which is very sad. Suicide takes lives and destroys people.

Sometimes people fail at their attempts and are angry because they will have to come up with a new plan and try again, but maybe if they get the proper treatment and help they will change their minds.

 

[Elley Mae]

Listed below are some common causes of suicide and a brief explanation regarding why it may lead a person to become suicidal. The most common cause of suicide is untreated depression, as 90% of individuals who commit suicide are depressed.

http://mentalhealthdaily.com/2014/07/23/15-common-causes-of-suicide-why-do-people-kill-themselves/

15 Common Causes of Suicide: A List of Possibilities

list at link

 

[sonjay]

What about people have almost-succeeded, like revived at the scene, or woken up after three days in a coma, happy to be alive and regretting their decision (though not always immediately)? Or who have made serious attempts and after years of treatment were thankful they hadn't been able to complete suicide? If you think people are of sound mind when they decide to kill themselves I would assume you think suicide prevention is pointless. Which is very sad. Suicide takes lives and destroys people.

Sometimes people fail at their attempts and are angry because they will have to come up with a new plan and try again, but maybe if they get the proper treatment and help they will change their minds.

They still failed. They may be different in fundamental ways from people who succeeded. The mindset, intentions and true desires of those who succeed at suicide are unknowable.

Please don't make assumptions about my opinions about suicide or suicide prevention. If you want to know what I think about a thing, feel free to ask, but please don't tell me that you "assume" I think a certain thing and then comment on how sad it is.

 

[Night-owl]

They still failed. They may be different in fundamental ways from people who succeeded. The mindset, intentions and true desires of those who succeed at suicide are unknowable.

Please don't make assumptions about my opinions about suicide or suicide prevention. If you want to know what I think about a thing, feel free to ask, but please don't tell me that you "assume" I think a certain thing and then comment on how sad it is.

There are surely people who unsuccessfully try to kill themselves who go on to successfully suicide.

I don't think it's a simple situation at all. People have a right to choose what kind of medical care they want. Say someone has a diagnosis of pancreatic cancer. That's about as serious of a cancer as you can have. A 26 year old may opt for a more agressive approach as an 86 year old. But that needs to be the individuals (informed) decision. If the poor 26 year old says palliative care only, who am I to argue?

The problem I have with suicide as a result of depression is that people have a distorted thought process. Even if it's not impulsive (and I think it was with Sandra), people have seldom exhausted all the other options.


Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

 

[katydid23]

In the state of Missouri it is.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

But this case took place in Texas. And in Texas it is legal.

 

[Night-owl]

But this case took place in Texas. And in Texas it is legal.

As long as you are on a two lane highway. And you can do it "safely".

Which is a perfect example of why you don't want to get into a disagreement with a cop that stopped you. If you want to argue the law, contest the ticket with the magistrate or traffic judge.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

 

[EllieBee]

I could be wrong, I think Montjoy is saying you can stop anyone in jail from killing themselves.

I say people are far too devious for that, and the best you can do is make it a lot harder for them. Subtle difference, I guess.

They do it entirely different down there in Waller Co, I guess. [emoji55]

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

I do think that a truly determined person can find a way to end their own life even in jail/prison.

I may be wrong (shocker, lol) but I think one of the reasons that LE places such an importance on close observation of an inmate who might be suicidal is that it can affect the outcome of an investigation (possible witness to other crimes or info on other perps), or on a pending trial (ranging from important testimony to closure for the victim's family).

This does not apply specifically to SB, but I do believe this is why such an importance is placed on "suicide watch".

A bit tangentially, though, is the obvious fact that SB's suicide brought unwanted attention to the jail and the county and the arresting officer. One would think this alone would be reason to closely monitor persons who appear distraught. Bad publicity is, well, bad.

I would love to believe that suicide watches are in place to protect the inmate, but my gut says the reasons are more pragmatic.

 

[EllieBee]

It's one of those things... may be legal under some cases, maybe illegal in others.

In my mind, moving traffic violations all break down to, "Don't cause an accident". So did I cause a wreck, or almost cause a wreck? No? Then not convinced it makes sense to be cited for it.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

Kind of like moving quickly out of the path of an emergency vehicle but not signaling?

And yes, it IS illegal to pass on the right.

 

[EllieBee]

There are surely people who unsuccessfully try to kill themselves who go on to successfully suicide.

I don't think it's a simple situation at all. People have a right to choose what kind of medical care they want. Say someone has a diagnosis of pancreatic cancer. That's about as serious of a cancer as you can have. A 26 year old may opt for a more agressive approach as an 86 year old. But that needs to be the individuals (informed) decision. If the poor 26 year old says palliative care only, who am I to argue?

The problem I have with suicide as a result of depresseion is that people have a distorted thought process. Even if it's not impulsive (and I think it was with Sandra), people have seldom exhausted all the other options.


Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

I agree. My best friend's mom tried to take her life towards the end of her bout with terminal cancer. She purposefully ODed on her Roxynal. And got hospitalized. So she could be watched. Good grief- she died a month later of the damn cancer. So effectively, she got sentenced to another month of pain because she did a no-no.

And I also agree with what you said about depression. When your life is viable, and you are going through dark times, you cannot SEE that the clouds will lift, and that suicide is a poor choice. Those people need love, support, and close monitoring.

I know it should be their choice, but in a way it is like allowing someone to make legal decisions while drunk or high. Depression skews your view on everything and the choices you make are not based on what IS, but on that skewed perception of what is.

Heartbreaking.

 

[bluesneakers]

There are surely people who unsuccessfully try to kill themselves who go on to successfully suicide.

I don't think it's a simple situation at all. People have a right to choose what kind of medical care they want. Say someone has a diagnosis of pancreatic cancer. That's about as serious of a cancer as you can have. A 26 year old may opt for a more agressive approach as an 86 year old. But that needs to be the individuals (informed) decision. If the poor 26 year old says palliative care only, who am I to argue?

The problem I have with suicide as a result of depression is that people have a distorted thought process. Even if it's not impulsive (and I think it was with Sandra), people have seldom exhausted all the other options.


Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

Thank you so much for this. I agree.

As for impulsive:

One 2001 study published in the journal Suicide and Life-Threatening Behavior found that among 153 cases of nearly completed suicides, 24 percent of people tried to kill themselves within 5 minutes of deciding to commit suicide. Seventy percent made an attempt within an hour of the decision.

That's why removing means of suicide are so important when someone is in crisis. If Sandra had made the decision and the garbage bag hadn't been there, an hour might have gone by and her mind could have changed.

 

[sonjay]

There are surely people who unsuccessfully try to kill themselves who go on to successfully suicide.

Yes, true. But the fact remains: They may well have had a very different mindset and very different intentions for the successful suicide vs. the unsuccessful attempt(s). It's unknowable. We cannot ever ask the successful ones.

 

[human]

I can't believe people are talking about Sandra killing herself. She was 28 years old. So young.

I suppose people are happy Robin Williams killed himelf, He was a substance abuser as well.

I am very sad people have no compassion for a 28 year old woman

 

[bluesneakers]

There are plenty who failed & were not happy. BTW I have no reason to believe SB's decision was not rational & well thought out.

I have reason to believe it was irrational and impulsive, and if she'd been provided proper care she would be alive today.

 

[bluesneakers]

I can't believe people are talking about Sandra killing herself. She was 28 years old. So young.

I suppose people are happy Robin Williams killed himelf, He was a substance abuser as well.

I am very sad people have no compassion for a 28 year old woman

Me too.

 

[Cyan]

If I recall, Sandra was quite tall... 5'10" or 5'11".0

 

[Cyan]

She let down all civilians, IMO.

 

[bwt42]

I have reason to believe it was irrational and impulsive, and if she'd been provided proper care she would be alive today.

You have your opinion. I have mine. We will never know who was right.

 

[K_Z]

I can have compassion for Sandra and her emotions that produced an impulsive suicide, even as I am skeptical that the jail and their staff could have done anything to prevent her suicide.

We cannot, and should not, treat EVERY person that is arrested as if they are imminently suicidal. The plastic garbage bag is a red herring-- SB was not under suicide precautions. The sad fact is that people can and DO hang or asphyxiate themselves to death using only their shirt collar or a sleeve opening on their jail scrubs or jumpsuit. Jailed people have hung/ asphyxiated themselves to death using the SHORT (less than 24") metal wrapped cord on the collect call pay phone in their cells.

Sandra was not under suicide precautions-- she was not in a suicide-secure environment, wearing a "taco suit". At this point in time, I am not convinced the jail did anything wrong with the level of screening, security, and supervision she was under. Jail staff are NOT mental health professionals, by a long shot. They cannot, and should not, be held to the same standards that licensed mental health professionals, and health care facilities, are held to. Sadly, Sandra committed a very impulsive suicide, and it will be extremely difficult to legally prove that the jail did anything "wrong" in the level of security she was held, IMO.

http://www.preventsuicide.com/

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/06/safety_smocks_standard_wear_fo.html

 

[EllieBee]

I can have compassion for Sandra and her emotions that produced an impulsive suicide, even as I am skeptical that the jail and their staff could have done anything to prevent her suicide.

We cannot, and should not, treat EVERY person that is arrested as if they are imminently suicidal. The plastic garbage bag is a red herring-- SB was not under suicide precautions. The sad fact is that people can and DO hang or asphyxiate themselves to death using only their shirt collar or a sleeve opening on their jail scrubs or jumpsuit. Jailed people have hung/ asphyxiated themselves to death using the SHORT (less than 24") metal wrapped cord on the collect call pay phone in their cells.

Sandra was not under suicide precautions-- she was not in a suicide-secure environment, wearing a "taco suit". At this point in time, I am not convinced the jail did anything wrong with the level of screening, security, and supervision she was under. Jail staff are NOT mental health professionals, by a long shot. They cannot, and should not, be held to the same standards that licensed mental health professionals, and health care facilities, are held to. Sadly, Sandra committed a very impulsive suicide, and it will be extremely difficult to legally prove that the jail did anything "wrong" in the level of security she was held, IMO.

http://www.preventsuicide.com/

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/06/safety_smocks_standard_wear_fo.html

I see your point but disagree. The jails and prisons have a responsibility to ensure the safety of their inmates. As per handbooks issued as a standard part of training.

This is a very real, and very recognized issue with incarcerated persons, hence the instructional materials on the subject.