TX Shots fired at a free-speech "draw Muhammad " event in Garland TX

[Ausgirl]

I guess you can't ask racist ignorant bigots to temper their statements with intelligence, or have respect for others, but of course they blame the people they provoke for reacting, so I guess we'll just :banghead:

I think it's cowardly and sick. Not the free speech, but the intent hiding behind it.

Not as sick as the people with the guns. But still sick.

 

[krimekat]

Just using this post as a jumping off point, truly, but I do wonder how some of the staunch defenders of the first amendment as per hate speech think about harassing talk in workplaces or in public? Based on what I've read here, I'd have to guess that many of this thread's more prolific posters would celebrate the right of someone to say whatever they want to anyone in any circumstance. After all, if hateful speech is a sacred right, I can't see how sexually offensive speech would be any different.

American Courts have determined (and most likely will continue to decide) what is "sexually offensive speech" in the work place & I assume every single corporation in America has their "rules of speak" too regarding sexually harassment & offensive language (you cannot say the F work where I work) . . .

and talk about hate speak/ harassment in public -- Case In Point are these "peaceful" protesters saying "F the Police", "Mother Fers" etc., that is also protected speech apparently . . .

Suggesting that some people's free speech should be curtailed because some other people find it offensive is ... well... offensive.

 

[KaaBoom]

Really? Were the SWAT teams and the bomb squad off duty? I wasn't aware they did contract work. What about all the people called in during and after the fact to secure the scene?

The security was the responsibility of the event organizer. They were off duty officers contracted to be there. The investigation of the shooting is the responsibility of the police department. Tax payers will have to pay for that.

 

[Dogface]

I had to take a break this evening, and I am said to see what the thread has turned into.

At the end of the day no words/cartoons/verbal provocation can make any one DO anything. People choose how they let something make them feel. These people would have attempted something else eventually.

With freedom of speech, nothing is sacred from mockery, and so it should be. Comedians often make fun of mentality handicapped, people say f*** the police, God hates f***, people post pics of a drawn picture of Jesus having sex with Jesus(literally Jesus f****** Christ) and yet the world continues, no one is threatened, or if they are, it's a random nut job who no one wants to be linked to. However, when a Muslim carries out a jihad, there are groups who claim them, and support them. THIS is the problem. Not the bear pokers. We live in an incendiary world, and people have to accept the law of the land, or find a new place to live.

Isis has killed ~170000 people. Jihadist have killed many in America, yet we are to tip toe around their beliefs to keep from offending the moderates? Sorry, but, if you are a moderate Muslim living in America you must resign the fact that, like all other religions, it will be mocked. If that is not acceptable, perhaps America isn't a good cultural match up.

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

I think it's cowardly and sick. Not the free speech, but the intent hiding behind it.

Not as sick as the people with the guns. But still sick.

Had it not been for the sick people with the guns I would have remained blissfully ignorant about the event.

 

[Sulamith]

Has she advocated or entreated any of her followers to resort to violence?

In the U.S., we do NOT restrict people's rights to free expression on the basis of some vague belief that someone, somewhere, might someday get "riled up" and "lash out" as a result. Period, full stop.

I live in in Texas, USA. There is no "we". There are a lot of free thinkers here, many individuals with many different opinions.

 

[sonjay]

I live in in Texas, USA. There is no "we". There are a lot of free thinkers here, many individuals with many different opinions.

I'm not sure what point you're making here.

I used "we" meaning the legal systems of all the states in the entire country: Texas, California, Alaska, Maine, Florida, Kentucky, Utah, etc., etc. The whole thing. All of it. "WE" the United States do not restrict people's rights of free speech and free expression based on some vague fear that someone might "lash out."

I know there are many individuals with many different opinions. I for one am glad of it. I get the feeling that a lot of people would like to be able to curtail the free speech rights of those whom they consider to be offensive, hateful, or bigoted. I'm glad they're not allowed to do that using the legal system. Terrorists tried to do it using guns, but they failed.

 

[KaaBoom]

I sincerely hope that no one in the U.S. is ever arrested, charged, or convicted for handing out pamphlets critical of anything.

It happens everyday.

[video=youtube;38ONTDJlBpc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38ONTDJlBpc[/video]

 

[sonjay]

How about reporters who are arrested by the US Government for refusing to reveal their sources? Canada repeatedly ranks higher then the US for press freedom.

How about US police who repeatedly interfere with people's rights to film, and take pictures? There is plenty of attack on freedom of speech in the US.

Yes, there is, and I abhor it. We've donated money to PINAC, among other groups. But this thread isn't about those things. This thread is about two terrorists who went to a cartoon contest and tried to murder innocent people for exercising their right to free expression.

 

[sonjay]

It happens everyday.

Is there some message or meaning here? Like, because free speech is sometimes wrongfully curtailed, that we shouldn't support it, or something? I'm sure that's not your message, but I'm not sure why you're posting this, because it's completely NOT relevant to the topic of this thread, which is about a terrorist attack on an event designed to celebrate and exercise free speech.

 

[sonjay]

I guess you can't ask racist ignorant bigots to temper their statements with intelligence, or have respect for others, but of course they blame the people they provoke for reacting, so I guess we'll just :banghead:

Well, blaming the victim is fashionable again, I see.

 

[Ausgirl]

No matter how it's whitewashed as innocent free speech etc, I don't believe that event was designed for anything but causing a ruckus. Irresponsibly so.

 

[Ausgirl]

I had to take a break this evening, and I am said to see what the thread has turned into.

At the end of the day no words/cartoons/verbal provocation can make any one DO anything. People choose how they let something make them feel. These people would have attempted something else eventually.

With freedom of speech, nothing is sacred from mockery, and so it should be. Comedians often make fun of mentality handicapped, people say f*** the police, God hates f***, people post pics of a drawn picture of Jesus having sex with Jesus(literally Jesus f****** Christ) and yet the world continues, no one is threatened, or if they are, it's a random nut job who no one wants to be linked to. However, when a Muslim carries out a jihad, there are groups who claim them, and support them. THIS is the problem. Not the bear pokers. We live in an incendiary world, and people have to accept the law of the land, or find a new place to live.

Isis has killed ~170000 people. Jihadist have killed many in America, yet we are to tip toe around their beliefs to keep from offending the moderates? Sorry, but, if you are a moderate Muslim living in America you must resign the fact that, like all other religions, it will be mocked. If that is not acceptable, perhaps America isn't a good cultural match up.

I agree with the majority of this post.

I also think the organisers of the cartoon event are ignorant, irresponsible racists.

 

[K_Z]

If they were just creating these cartoons organically I might feel differently, but the way this event was put about was to deliberately provoke .. as if to wave a flag and say 'Hiiiiiiiiiiii here's us, hey we're mocking the prophet .. whooooooooo .. check it out, free speech YO!!!' which is a pretty childish way to deal with the fact that extremists have an unhealthy reaction to depictions of the prophet, and hardly opens up healthy discourse.

The goal was never to open up healthy discourse. They absolutely INTENDED to provoke a reaction, on lots of levels. The Geller group didn't impulsively show up on a playground, or at a daycare, to use innocent babies as shields to exercise their provocative free speech. They didn't crash a Friday service at a Mosque. They didn't block airline runways or freeways, or cut holes in firehoses. They didn't burn police cars, private businesses, or old folk's homes. They didn't physically hurt anyone, or any property. They signed up to rent a public space, were up-front about what they intended to do, paid the extra insurance and security fees, broadcast their intentions ahead of time, etc. And then had the RIGHT to spew their hateful message. I'm good with that, even as I think their message is bone-headed hate mongering.

I don't agree with their message, which I AGREE was intended to provoke layers of responses. In this particular case, all of the blame, IMO, falls on the two incompetent mujahedeen domestic terrorists, who, thankfully were promptly neutralized before they killed anyone. I'm glad they're dead. They can't hurt anyone else ever again.

I agree with the poster above that if it were not for the terrorists who showed up with bombs, grenades, and assault rifles, that most of the country and the world would never have heard about the "cartoon contest". ~Shrug~.

It's also not even close to the same thing as the inner city "protests" that devolve into riots that we've been observing. If those folks that want to holler "F*** the police" were to organize and rent a public venue, pay security fees and rental facility charges, pay for extra security, and go about their "F*** the Police" mission in the same way as the Geller group, I'd be all about protecting their free speech, too. But instead, they want to hurt people, loot, burn, and riot. So, once they start doing that, I pretty much don't give a rip about "protecting" what they have to say. I'd be just fine with the rioters being killed, too, after being given a few chances to stop, and using less lethal weapons. They are just another kind of terrorist, IMO. A domestic terrorist.

 

[KaaBoom]

Has she advocated or entreated any of her followers to resort to violence?

As a matter of fact violence against Muslims in the US is increasing and her type of rhetoric is in-sighting it.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/mounting-violence-against-muslims-in-america/5432212

 

[KaaBoom]

Had it not been for the sick people with the guns I would have remained blissfully ignorant about the event.

And that is what the organizers of the event wanted.

 

[KEVINinTO]

The keynote speaker at this free-speech event was famous Dutch freedom-fighter Geert Wilders. In 2008 Wilders made a short-film "Fitna".

As a result of this film Wilders was accused of "hate speech" for his portrayal of the Religion of Peace™ and yet none of his own words appear in the film. Instead the 17 minute film contains excerpts of Suras from the Qur'an interspersed with media clips showing gruesome terrorist attacks along with clips of speeches from radical Islamists. For showing the TRUTH he was labelled a "hatemonger" and banned from entering the UK.

For those of you who do not understand why people like Geert Wilders, Pam Geller and Robert Spencer take the enormous risks to do what they do I would URGE you to watch this short film. What is interesting is even though it was produced in 2008 - long before anyone ever heard of ISIS there are execution scenes that look identical to ISIS executions (prisoner's in orange jump suits against a black flag backdrop). In other words the Islamic state did not appear overnight. Perhaps if people paid attention to Geert Wilders back in 2008 we could have averted the tragedy that is occurring in the middle east and Africa today where 100,000's of Christians and Yazidi's (including women, children, and babies) are being exterminated by ISIS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RmiRPEvUIk

 

[KEVINinTO]

Geert Wilders has had to pay a huge price for his stance on free speech. From Wikipedia a description of his personal life

Wilders is said to have been "deprived... of a personal life. He is constantly accompanied by a permanent security detail of about six plainclothes police officers, and does not receive visitors unless they are cleared in advance, thoroughly searched, and escorted at all times. He lives in a state-provided safe house which is outfitted to be bulletproof, is heavily guarded by police, and has a panic room. He is driven from his home to his offices in parliament in an armored police vehicle, and wears a bulletproof vest.[42][43][44] His office is located in the most isolated corner of the Dutch Parliament building, and was chosen because potential terrorists can get to it through only one corridor, making it easier for his bodyguards to repel an attack.[45] He is married to Krisztina Wilders (née Marfai), a former diplomat of Hungarian origin,[46] with whom he can only meet about once every week due to security concerns.[30] The restrictions on his life because of this, he said, are "a situation that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geert_Wilders#Personal_life

 

[Ausgirl]

KZ, thanks for your post, I agree with much of it. Except the part about being fine with people (many being kids as well..) being killed.

Just wanted to briefly address though - briefly, as I don't want to derail the thread..

It's also not even close to the same thing as the inner city "protests" that devolve into riots

I posted this on the Freddy Gray thread more fully.. but the protests and the riots in Baltimore were clearly two separate but overlapping events, in that each had an agenda and shared some of the same crowd. But they were not the same event, nor did they have the same agenda.

There's abundant visible proof that the riots were a carefully planned additional and invasive event that was advertised on FB and other social media as a "purge event", which had nothing to do with Freddy Gray or justice for anyone, and was instead aimed solely at inciting violence toward police. And it went off at the planned time and place, as advertised.

To me, the protests seemed to go reasonably well, given what a powder keg of an issue was at hand. The riots, as an organised plan to attack police and cause as much mayhem as possible, were tantamount to terrorism. IMO.

 

[KEVINinTO]

The Pam Gellers and Robert Spencers of the world have been accused of "hating Muslims" but the reality is they do not hate people - they do not hate Muslims - they hate Islamic ideology (BIG DIFFERENCE).

For example - here in Canada a Muslim teenage girl - Aqsa Parvez - was murdered by her father and brother in an "honor killing" for refusing to wear a headscarf ("hijab"). Even in death her family were ashamed of her and buried her in an unmarked grave. Hearing about this Pam Geller offered to pay for a headstone. The family refused this generous offer!

In December 2008, when I read that Aqsa lay in an unmarked grave, I was beside myself. I started a memorial fund at Atlas to get her a headstone. But I had no idea how difficult and ugly it would be simply to honor a teenage girl in Canada who just wanted to live free — and how eagerly Western non-Muslims would aid and abet the family's efforts to dishonor her in death as they did in life.

Readers of my weblog, AtlasShrugs.com, opened their hearts and their wallets, and contributed $5,000 for a headstone for Aqsa. Robert Spencer of Jihad Watch joined the effort, and we approved a design for a headstone that read, "In loving memory of Aqsa Parvez, Apr. 22, 1991-Dec. 10, 2007 — Beloved, remembered and free." All was going according to plan until, after much silence, Meadowvale Cemetery in Brampton, Ontario, where Aqsa is buried, advised me that the family (yes, the family that murdered her) had refused to "sign off" on the headstone. The director of the cemetery said: "The family wants changes and is planning on coming in to see me. They did not book an appointment yet but I hope to see them soon."

- See more at: http://pamelageller.com/2011/08/tomorrow-in-israel-aqsa-parvez.html/#sthash.7GRl3QPN.dpuf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Aqsa_Parvez


Undeterred Pamela Geller set about to create a permanent memorial to Aqsa Parvez in Israel. In 2011 the Aqsa Parvez Memorial Grove was dedicated in Israel to the memory of Aqsa Parvez and other victims of honor killings.

http://pamelageller.com/2011/08/tomorrow-in-israel-aqsa-parvez.html/

Rest in Peace Aqsa Parvez