TX: Transgender teen boy wins girls high school state wrestling title

[gitana1]

Testosterone is a steroid. Females have much lower levels compared to males. A biological female taking steroids would therefore have an advantage over other females not taking steroids.

So what? People are not all created equal. Some are born with more muscle mass, regardless of sex. Some are born with bodies uniquely suited to sport, like Michael Phelps. Texas and other states have to choose. If they won't let the kid play with other males, they can't exclude him from participation based on taking a medication that others are allowed to take when prescribed.

Regardless of my misgivings about it, the kid has been diagnosed and prescribed medicine by a doctor. He must not be discriminated against for that. His "advantage" is not within his control.

We can never totally level the playing field anyhow.

 

[MsJosie]

MB's record this season was 57/0.

Think about that in the context of 2 years of testosterone therapy, and the decision that he had to wrestle as a female.

Did any of the other females in the 110# weight class have any real chance at all of beating MB? I don't think so.

I was wondering of the 57 wins....how many opponents forfeited the match?

We had twin girls wrestle with the boys in 8th grade. The girls demanded it and the school said okay because they did not want a lawsuit based on sex or race. When the girls would go to wrestle a guy, the guys would get in the ring then forfeit...they did,not want any physical contact with a gal. The girls had all wins because if this. I was just wondering if this happened at all with the 57 wins?

 

[DexterMorgan]

He couldn't wrestle in the boys league for safety reasons.

This avoids future lawsuits if he got hurt or whatever else while being a girl in the boys league.

Now this means he is left to only have the option of wrestling in the girls league.

Okay. Great .

But. He should have been forced to lay off any testosterone therapy and play on the same level as the other girls.

Now let's say he rather kept taking the testosterone and not wrestle at all.

Then that's his right too.

But don't cheat the other girls from wins by allowing 1 to basically take drugs that are not allowed to be taken in that female age group division. Jmo

Just say no and stop worrying about lawsuits.

 

[MsArk]

He couldn't wrestle in the boys league for safety reasons.

This avoids future lawsuits if he got hurt or whatever else while being a girl in the boys league.

Now this means he is left to only have the option of wrestling in the girls league.

Okay. Great .

But. He should have been forced to lay off any testosterone therapy and play on the same level as the other girls.

Now let's say he rather kept taking the testosterone and not wrestle at all.

Then that's his right too.

But don't cheat the other girls from wins by allowing 1 to basically take drugs that are not allowed to be taken in that female age group division. Jmo

Just say no and stop worrying about lawsuits.

Agree. Shouldn't it come down to the use of PED rather than the trans issue? Why should one person be allowed to take testosterone when it is clearly against the rules? Fine if he wants to use it and a doctor prescribes it. If we are talking about what's "fair", why not take into account what's "fair" for the rest of the student athlete population. Regulations should apply across the board regardless of what gender one identifies with!

 

[jjenny]

So what? People are not all created equal. Some are born with more muscle mass, regardless of sex. Some are born with bodies uniquely suited to sport, like Michael Phelps. Texas and other states have to choose. If they won't let the kid play with other males, they can't exclude him from participation based on taking a medication that others are allowed to take when prescribed.

Regardless of my misgivings about it, the kid has been diagnosed and prescribed medicine by a doctor. He must not be discriminated against for that. His "advantage" is not within his control.

We can never totally level the playing field anyhow.

So what? Why do even test athletes for performance enhancing drugs then? Athletes are banned from Olympics for taking PED (which testosterone is). What for? Just let them take whatever. Life isn't fair. If MB wants to compete further as a female, how far should he be allowed to go?

 

[Shin Masamura]

Can you honestly imagine any kid wanting to "fake" being trans so they can play with the opposite sex? It's remains a nightmare to be trans or gay for a teen. I can't imagine that's a legitimate risk.

Maybe fake is in correct, but raise the issue of discrimination if you want to play an opposite gender sport. Trolls will be trolls and the slippery slope could be created. Im all for Trans people being acknowledged, however you have to raise all possibilities when you want to make blanket exceptions to the rule.

 

[jjenny]

Can you honestly imagine any kid wanting to "fake" being trans so they can play with the opposite sex? It's remains a nightmare to be trans or gay for a teen. I can't imagine that's a legitimate risk.

Yes. Some people will do anything to win. You are acting as if athletes (numerous) haven't been caught taking PEDs, which could be dangerous for their health. We are talking all kinds of substances. I am not suggesting MB is faking it but I can envision that somebody would if they are then legally allowed to take PEDs and compete.

 

[Shin Masamura]

Just wanted to throw this out there, even though we have our differences, its awesome the growing community on Websleuths. I hope we all realize (on this board) that we have the best intentions and try to help and debate whats going on. Its really eye opening all the cases we deal with and look thru that get no media attention but we look into the missing and Unidentified. Hats off to all of you

 

[gitana1]

Yes. Some people will do anything to win. You are acting as if athletes (numerous) haven't been caught taking PEDs, which could be dangerous for their health. We are talking all kinds of substances. I am not suggesting MB is faking it but I can envision that somebody would if they are then legally allowed to take PEDs and compete.

We are talking about teenage athletes. Kids in school. In a climate in which there continues to be discrimination of trans people. Murders of trans people. Basing policy on the off chance that a kid could fake being trans in order to be given testosterone so they can beat their opponents, is not rational to me. Doctors make the diagnosis when they prescribe hormones. I don't see any other safeguards that are needed.

 

[rob]

So what? People are not all created equal. Some are born with more muscle mass, regardless of sex. Some are born with bodies uniquely suited to sport, like Michael Phelps. Texas and other states have to choose. If they won't let the kid play with other males, they can't exclude him from participation based on taking a medication that others are allowed to take when prescribed.

Regardless of my misgivings about it, the kid has been diagnosed and prescribed medicine by a doctor. He must not be discriminated against for that. His "advantage" is not within his control.

We can never totally level the playing field anyhow.

I agree that no playing field is level. And when that is based on natural ability, OK. But what happens when he goes to a match and the opponents say no, I don't want to wrestle him or their parents are afraid for their child to go against him, because of the PED's. then everyone will be screaming that they are against the trans kid, when in reality they are trying to protect their own kid.
When only .3 percent of the population identifys as trans, should the other 99.7 have to bow out of competition? And how many of that .3 percent have a desire to wrestle? I think we'd be in the .0001 range.

 

[gitana1]

I was wondering of the 57 wins....how many opponents forfeited the match?

We had twin girls wrestle with the boys in 8th grade. The girls demanded it and the school said okay because they did not want a lawsuit based on sex or race. When the girls would go to wrestle a guy, the guys would get in the ring then forfeit...they did,not want any physical contact with a gal. The girls had all wins because if this. I was just wondering if this happened at all with the 57 wins?

I wondered the same thing.

He couldn't wrestle in the boys league for safety reasons.

This avoids future lawsuits if he got hurt or whatever else while being a girl in the boys league.

Now this means he is left to only have the option of wrestling in the girls league.

Okay. Great .

But. He should have been forced to lay off any testosterone therapy and play on the same level as the other girls.

Now let's say he rather kept taking the testosterone and not wrestle at all.

Then that's his right too.

But don't cheat the other girls from wins by allowing 1 to basically take drugs that are not allowed to be taken in that female age group division. Jmo

Just say no and stop worrying about lawsuits.

I see no rational safety reasons arising from kids of different biological sexes competing in the same weight class. And I don't believe that's what Texas said was the reason for not letting him wrestle boys. It was simply a policy they made to separate the sexes. Regardless, he was diagnosed and prescribed medication by his doctor. So he cannot be treated differently than other kids who might also be prescribed testosterone for other reasons.

 

[gitana1]

I agree that no playing field is level. And when that is based on natural ability, OK. But what happens when he goes to a match and the opponents say no, I don't want to wrestle him or their parents are afraid for their child to go against him, because of the PED's. then everyone will be screaming that they are against the trans kid, when in reality they are trying to protect their own kid.
When only .3 percent of the population identifys as trans, should the other 99.7 have to bow out of competition? And how many of that .3 percent have a desire to wrestle? I think we'd be in the .0001 range.

It doesn't matter whether people scream. It's the parents and other
competitor's choice to compete. As to the argument about trans
persons being the minority so why inconvenience the majority, our thle
of law is not based on majority rule when it comes to discrimination and the consititution. Anti-discrimination laws are specifically meant to
protect minority populations. People without strength in numbers or economic
power.

I get the debate. People take sports seriously. But Texas has to decide. Either live with the decision that kids can only compete with the sex that matches
their biology with any exceptions regarding hormones applying to all kids with a prescription, or let the kids play with the opposite sex.

The very fact that trans kids are in such small numbers in this nation means that there is less chance of this "inconveniencing" the rest of the kids- kids who don't face the lifelong discrimination, hate and struggles that trans kids do.

 

[K_Z]

For me, this has always been an issue of the testosterone use, not an issue of gender identity specifically-- though as I posted earlier in the thread, the situation in the reverse, with a 6'2" 260 lb MTF transitioning teen wrestling on a high school girls team is disturbing. The NCAA has a solution for that situation, which requires the MTF transgender person to take testosterone blockers for at least one year, and submit testing results. The athlete is ineligible to compete during the year of T-blocking meds.

I think the only fair way for high schools to proceed is to establish policies that are in accordance with other sports agencies, such as the NCAA (collegiate sports authority).

This would require trans students, and perhaps even all student athletes, to submit more medical information to establish their eligibility-- but each student would be treated the same, and would have the opportunity to either comply with the disclosure of the medical information, or choose not to compete.

There would have to be disclosure of gender at birth, whether or not the student was being treated for a gender identity disorder, and all medications taken within the past year, in order to establish eligibility to compete. Students already have to have a physical to establish that they are healthy enough to participate in sports, so adding this additional information would not be very onerous-- but it would be viewed as a foray into privacy by some, and would potentially require student athletes to submit to more intimate examination, and more blood tests, and whether all doctors would be "approved" to write the reports, or only certain designated docs.

I think personally that it's ridiculous that we even have to consider going this route to make "all" students disclose whether or not they are being treated for being transgender simply to make it appear "fair" to 1 or 2 students in a whole state, but the current liberal progressive agenda continuously redefining what are "rights" and what are "protected classes" leaves no other really good options.

I think it's wrong to establish policies for the 99.999% compelling them to submit to additional examination and disclose information to somehow "protect" the rights of an infinitesimal number of trans athletes in high school sports. (I think that some call that "claim rights" versus "liberty rights".) But if we don't make it apply to "every" athlete, then there will be lawsuits and cries of discrimination by those who are asked or selected to provide more information.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claim_rights_and_liberty_rights

Here is the NCAA policy.

https://www.transathlete.com/policies-college

The National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA), which organizes competition in 23 sports at over 1,000 colleges and universities, does not require gender confirming surgery or legal recognition of a player's transitioned sex in order for transgender players to participate on a team which matches their identity. However, things become a bit more complicated when hormones are used. The recommended NCAA policy requires one year of hormone treatment as a condition prior to competing on a female team. Conversely, athletes assigned female at birth remain eligible to compete in women’s sports unless or until that athlete begins a physical transition using hormones (testosterone).

NCAA Policy on Transgender Student-Athlete Participation
The following policies clarify participation of transgender student-athletes undergoing hormonal treatment for gender transition:
1. A trans male (FTM) student-athlete who has received a medical exception for treatment with testosterone for diagnosed Gender Identity Disorder or gender dysphoria and/or Transsexualism, for purposes of NCAA competition may compete on a men’s team, but is no longer eligible to compete on a women’s team without changing that team status to a mixed team.
2. A trans female (MTF) student-athlete being treated with testosterone suppression medication for Gender Identity Disorder or gender dysphoria and/or Transsexualism, for the purposes of NCAA competition may continue to compete on a men’s team but may not compete on a women’s team without changing it to a mixed team status until completing one calendar year of testosterone suppression treatment.

Any transgender student-athlete who is not taking hormone treatment related to gender transition may participate in sex-separated sports activities in accordance with his or her assigned birth gender.
• A trans male (FTM) student-athlete who is not taking testosterone related to gender transition may participate on a men’s or women’s team.
• A trans female (MTF) transgender student-athlete who is not taking hormone treatments related to gender transition may not compete on a women’s team.

 

[K_Z]

I was wondering of the 57 wins....how many opponents forfeited the match?

We had twin girls wrestle with the boys in 8th grade. The girls demanded it and the school said okay because they did not want a lawsuit based on sex or race. When the girls would go to wrestle a guy, the guys would get in the ring then forfeit...they did,not want any physical contact with a gal. The girls had all wins because if this. I was just wondering if this happened at all with the 57 wins?

Here is some additional information about forfeits during the state tourney.. Some of the wins prior to state were forfeits, but I don't know how many.

During the state regional tournament, Beggs’s two opponents forfeited rather than face him.

On behalf of the father of one opponent, Baudhuin sent a certified letter in January petitioning the UIL to move Beggs to the boys’ division. This month he filed a lawsuit that asked for Beggs to be allowed to wrestle boys or removed from the championship tournament. For now, he said, the court has made no decision. The UIL issued a statement Friday that said the birth-certificate rule could change in the future (its legislative council meets in June), and Beggs’s school district determined his testosterone was “well below the allowed level.”

Lisa Latham’s daughter was scheduled to face Beggs in the state tournament’s opening round, and throughout the previous week Latham tried to convince Taylor, a senior at nearby Clear Spring High, to forfeit as Beggs’s opponents did the previous weekend.

Taylor, though, refused to consider a forfeit. This would be her final weekend of high school competition, an appearance at the state championship alongside the state’s top 16 wrestlers. Whatever the outcome, she wouldn’t be giving up.

Her mother prayed for Taylor’s safety and texted her inspirational songs. She called the American Civil Liberties Union the day before the state tournament to ask for an emergency injunction to keep Beggs from competing.

Taylor’s parents arrived at Berry Center shortly before Friday’s opening round. Her father, James, was confident; her mother was anxious, rocking back and forth with her hands clasped. Neither blamed Beggs, exactly, for creating this controversy; instead the Lathams were unhappy with the UIL.

“The system is set up to fail. It’s failing Mack, and it’s failing my daughter,” Lisa said.

Beggs won on points to advance to the afternoon’s quarterfinal. Lisa was relieved her daughter hadn’t been injured, and James was proud that Taylor had faced Beggs despite the long odds. Both were relieved Taylor hadn’t been pinned.

*The whole article is worth reading, IMO.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/spor...a3817ac21a5_story.html?utm_term=.66b4d02caf66

 

[K_Z]

It doesn't matter whether people scream. It's the parents and other
competitor's choice to compete. As to the argument about trans
persons being the minority so why inconvenience the majority, our thle
of law is not based on majority rule when it comes to discrimination and the consititution. Anti-discrimination laws are specifically meant to
protect minority populations. People without strength in numbers or economic
power.

I get the debate. People take sports seriously. But Texas has to decide. Either live with the decision that kids can only compete with the sex that matches
their biology with any exceptions regarding hormones applying to all kids with a prescription, or let the kids play with the opposite sex.

The very fact that trans kids are in such small numbers in this nation means that there is less chance of this "inconveniencing" the rest of the kids- kids who don't face the lifelong discrimination, hate and struggles that trans kids do.

I just wanted to comment again that I don't believe transgender issues are civil rights or anti-discrimination issues at all. I think they are situations under which accommodations for disorders/ disabilities are necessary, and properly dealt with under those laws (such as IDEA and ADA). I think there are a lot of people who agree with that view.

It is an interesting distinction, IMO, that will eventually have to be addressed at the level of the SCOTUS.

 

[jjenny]

We are talking about teenage athletes. Kids in school. In a climate in which there continues to be discrimination of trans people. Murders of trans people. Basing policy on the off chance that a kid could fake being trans in order to be given testosterone so they can beat their opponents, is not rational to me. Doctors make the diagnosis when they prescribe hormones. I don't see any other safeguards that are needed.

Perofrmance wise,what difference would it make if somebody is trans or faking? If they are taking testosterone, it's likely enhancing their performance. Do you think MB would be winning all these matches if he wasn't taking testosterone? And how do you think this situation helps with acceptance of transgender issues?

 

[DexterMorgan]

I wondered the same thing.



I see no rational safety reasons arising from kids of different biological sexes competing in the same weight class. And I don't believe that's what Texas said was the reason for not letting him wrestle boys. It was simply a policy they made to separate the sexes. Regardless, he was diagnosed and prescribed medication by his doctor. So he cannot be treated differently than other kids who might also be prescribed testosterone for other reasons.

Because if she had gotten seriously hurt or bullied or whatever while wrestling in the boys division. Then thats when her parents would have sued while showing all the younger feminine looking pics of her on the
News or to the jury with the hopes of collecting a big lawsuit of why the school shouldn't have agreed to allow her to wrestle in the boys division.

Jmo.

So I definitely would be wary of future possible lawsuits as well and denied his/her petition to wrestle with the boys.

Plus I would have told them that he can't take drugs of that nature while wrestling in the girls division.

So maybe someone can start a Transgender division in the community.

Jmo. Because we need to protect everyone.

 

[K_Z]

I don't have a problem with mixed genders competing in timed sports, or non-contact sports (such as swimming, track and field, or tennis).

It's contact sports where I have issues with mixed genders, especially at the K-12 level. That seems to be a common concern for a lot of parents. And it doesn't get more bodily intimate or "contact" than wrestling!

 

[MaryG12]

My only question about this case is:

Has Mack had SRS? Which is different from testosterone injections.

IMO a person who identifies as transgendered should wait until they turn 18 before they have SRS.

 

[gitana1]

So what? Why do even test athletes for performance enhancing drugs then? Athletes are banned from Olympics for taking PED (which testosterone is). What for? Just let them take whatever. Life isn't fair. If MB wants to compete further as a female, how far should he be allowed to go?

Simple. The line is drawn at taking testosterone for a medical reason versus taking it to enhance performance. For one you need a diagnosis and prescription. Perhaps those issues are
more debatable when we are talking about fully grown adults in international sports. But we are not. We are talking about kids in Texas.