TX - Two Mothers Who Killed Children Form Bond

[Jeana (DP)]

Don't tell me what I am or what I'm not Jeana.
I happen to have quite a few friends that suffer from mental illness and like I said I am all for removing the stigma.

These women might have got off on reasons of insanity, but were they really insane?
You and I might say yes, you'd have to be to do that....but we also know that is not always the case.
It's alot easier for these women to plead insanity than it is to face the reality of their actions.
They are alot safer in a mental institution than they are in jail and they know it.

I call 'em like I see 'em darlin. My opinion stands. I don't think cure them or push them off a cliff is the way to go. Pleading guilty and spending their lives in prison is the opposite of facing their actions. Being in therapy day in and day out and having to relive a life gone horribly wrong and having someone in your face day by day by day making you go over it and over it and over it time and time again IS FACING THE REALITY of their actions. Sticking them in a prison cell and making them swallow a pill to dull them is not. Honestly, I think I would rather just be spending my time with women who sold a few drugs or stole some money rather than with women who are delusional, psychopathic killers, but that's just me.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

...that clear cut....My Dad, who is a mental health professional who has been an expert witness many times in criminal cases involving sanity determinations, has said over and over again that very few people meet the legal definitions of insanity. Most harcore violent criminals are mentally ill to some extent as evidenced by the nature of what they are doing....at the very least they have violent tendencies and conduct disorders, but THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING....THEY KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RIGHT AND WRONG, and choose wrong.

My Dad has said that about the only people he has encountered who meet the legal definitions of insanity would be hardcore schizophrenics, paranoid schizophrenics for example.

Andrea Yates is an interesting case because I don't know if all of her religious is a cover for her extreme anger at her situation and her husband's control, or if she is in the paranoid schiz. category...

If you had mental health folks go into any prison tomorrow and evaluate the inmates there, nearly 100% would have some type of Dx. So the quesiton becomes, which mentally ill folks are not aware of the difference between right and wrong...The folks who are truly so mentally ill as to fall within the legal definition and who are that out of touch with reality are probably less than half a percent of all people coming through the criminal justice system...

Edited to add that the vast majority of people with mental illness commit no violent crimes, whatsoever...

Good post and I agree. My problem, I believe, is with the wording of the law itself. I think it should be changed from "not knowing the difference between right and wrong." I think that you can be guilty, but insane. I think its possible to "know" what you're doing is "legally" wrong, but "morally" right. I think that's where Yates fits in. I think in her own mind, she WAS saving the children. I have no doubt that her husband tried for a short time to get her help. I think that his "contribution" to the family was working outside the home. I think that Andrea knew she was doing a poor job as a parent. I think Andrea had the feeling that she wanted to prevent her children from having to be raised by what she considered a "substandard parent (herself)," but what would that leave them with? They wouldn't turn out "right" in her warped mind and she wanted to be sure they would go to Heaven. Andrea wasn't bathing. She wasn't eating. She was pulling out her own hair. She was, many times, unable to even speak. This is NOT a woman who was faking it so that she could get rid of her five children and plead insanity. There was no financial motive. There was no other man. There wasn't anything but her desire to save the souls of her children. What mother wouldn't do anything to accomplish that? Most of us do that by nurturing them, loving them and taking care of them. But this particular mother knew that she was incapable of that and there wasn't anyone else who could fill the role. In order for her children to be saved, she believed she had to do what she did.

 

[narlacat]

I call 'em like I see 'em darlin. My opinion stands. I don't think cure them or push them off a cliff is the way to go. Pleading guilty and spending their lives in prison is the opposite of facing their actions. Being in therapy day in and day out and having to relive a life gone horribly wrong and having someone in your face day by day by day making you go over it and over it and over it time and time again IS FACING THE REALITY of their actions. Sticking them in a prison cell and making them swallow a pill to dull them is not. Honestly, I think I would rather just be spending my time with women who sold a few drugs or stole some money rather than with women who are delusional, psychopathic killers, but that's just me.

Sure you do Jeana and good for you.

I think you'll find they swallow pills in mental institutions too.
I've been to criminally insane wards and there ain't too much therapy going on there.
These kind of people are slightly beyond getting help let me tell ya.
You don't kill 5 of your children, go into therapy and 'talk it through' and get out and live a normal life.

Yep, jail's a real picnic

 

[narlacat]

Good post and I agree. My problem, I believe, is with the wording of the law itself. I think it should be changed from "not knowing the difference between right and wrong." I think that you can be guilty, but insane. I think its possible to "know" what you're doing is "legally" wrong, but "morally" right. I think that's where Yates fits in. I think in her own mind, she WAS saving the children. I have no doubt that her husband tried for a short time to get her help. I think that his "contribution" to the family was working outside the home. I think that Andrea knew she was doing a poor job as a parent. I think Andrea had the feeling that she wanted to prevent her children from having to be raised by what she considered a "substandard parent (herself)," but what would that leave them with? They wouldn't turn out "right" in her warped mind and she wanted to be sure they would go to Heaven. Andrea wasn't bathing. She wasn't eating. She was pulling out her own hair. She was, many times, unable to even speak. This is NOT a woman who was faking it so that she could get rid of her five children and plead insanity. There was no financial motive. There was no other man. There wasn't anything but her desire to save the souls of her children. What mother wouldn't do anything to accomplish that? Most of us do that by nurturing them, loving them and taking care of them. But this particular mother knew that she was incapable of that and there wasn't anyone else who could fill the role. In order for her children to be saved, she believed she had to do what she did.

Well, you know what thought thought

And so, if every mother went around doing that, would that make it alright?

She killed her children, she didn't save them from anything.
She robbed them of their lives.
Why should she get to live hers when she took out 5 people's lives?
Women who kill are evil, whichever way we look at it, our job is to bring life into this world, not take it out.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Well, you know what thought thought

And so, if every mother went around doing that, would that make it alright?

She killed her children, she didn't save them from anything.
She robbed them of their lives.
Why should she get to live hers when she took out 5 people's lives?
Women who kill are evil, whichever way we look at it, our job is to bring life into this world, not take it out.

No. If every mother went around and did that, it would not make it alright. INTERVENTION. There's one hell of a big word, huh???? Darlin, it doesn't have to be one way or the other way. We can stop this.

Andrea Yatea DID save them. She saved them from being rasied by their father, who andrea had zero faith in. She saved them from eternal damnation = and honestly, how can you truimp that????????

 

[narlacat]

No. If every mother went around and did that, it would not make it alright. INTERVENTION. There's one hell of a big word, huh???? Darlin, it doesn't have to be one way or the other way. We can stop this.

Andrea Yatea DID save them. She saved them from being rasied by their father, who andrea had zero faith in. She saved them from eternal damnation = and honestly, how can you truimp that????????

I am speechless.

 

[Gozgals]

First of all, I normally never speak for another or try to explain what another means, but I think I'm on the same track as Jeana.

I think what Jeana is saying is being taken way out of context and her initial premises should be read all the way from the beginning of thread.
Being locked up in a mental institution is not a picnic, in fact, neither is being held for life in a prison. Many patients of mental institutions do in fact fringe being mentally ill to avoid prison time but they are conscious of their behavior and playing the system.

True, many in the prison system do have one form of mental illness or another but this does not constitute mental illness by far. There is a wide margin of those that are truly insane. Those that are insane are usually those that are of the schizophrenic nature as Yates was and is. Many mental institutions are pure hell holes where help is not even alloted and patients just sit there doped up, and are not afforded the help they truly need. On internships, and through some personal experiences, (not myself) I had the unfortunate experinces of visiting Willowbrook Institute as a young child, what a disgrace, GA Regional Hospital and other facilities. These places are not cupcake making establishments but harsh asylums in my recollection.
Stoneybrook Instituition on Long Island was in fact a very unsafe place to be and about broke my heart when I visited a patient at the age of 10 years old. I did not see many patients that seemed to be functioning at any level and I was not in a ward where they would keep one such as A. Yates.

I think those that care/ or know those with hardcore mental diseases understand the organic nature of these problems and how hard they are to treat. It is a disorder of the mind, not one of evil. We need as a society to change and help these people before we lose more of our population.
It is not a fine line between Evil and Mental Disease. Evil is just pure evil, mental illness is a disease that needs to be stopped in its tracks, (if it can be treated or controlled) and thought of as an illness by society and those that love the ones that are suffering. The family members in these cases should have been more aware and less apathetic.

Subjects as such are the best when people agree to disagree.

Gozgals

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Excellent post!!!

 

[narlacat]

Yeah great post Godzals

Still, no idea what goes in criminally insane wards though.
There is notherapy going on there, who knows about Yates.

How anyone can think Yates saved her kids is beyond me.

 

[Gozgals]

Thanks Jeana for your thoughts.:blowkiss:

And Thank you too narlacat --

But Please don't misinterpret and ever think I feel Yates saved her kids at all by taking their lives. I wish somebody would have intervened before this tragedy occurred. It is one of the saddest cases to date.


Gozgals

 

[narlacat]

Thanks Jeana for your thoughts.:blowkiss:

And Thank you too narlacat --

But Please don't misinterpret and ever think I feel Yates saved her kids at all by taking their lives. I wish somebody would have intervened before this tragedy occurred. It is one of the saddest cases to date.


Gozgals

I didn't misinterpret you, I wasn't referring to you.
Seemingly it is what Jeana thinks

<<Andrea Yatea DID save them. She saved them from being rasied by their father, who andrea had zero faith in. She saved them from eternal damnation = and honestly, how can you truimp that????????>>

 

[Masterj]

I didn't misinterpret you, I wasn't referring to you.
Seemingly it is what Jeana thinks

<<Andrea Yatea DID save them. She saved them from being rasied by their father, who andrea had zero faith in. She saved them from eternal damnation = and honestly, how can you truimp that????????>>

I think if you read all of Jeana's posts you will understand her point. I don't think Jeana thinks Andrea Yates saved her kids. I think Jeana thinks Andrea believes she saved her kids.

 

[Gozgals]

HI Masterj,

Yes, Andrea Yates, in her insane mind believed she was saving her children
from eternal damnation as stated. This came from her mouth and hers alone. This is why she felt the need to kill her children, but this of course is old news in this case. This is the reason she was placed in a mental institution instead of doing a lifelong stint in prison.

I doubt any treatment she receives in the institution will bring her back her sanity. Even seeing recent pictures of her, one can tell she is on various anti-psychotic drugs due to the weight gain. In the criminal insane ward of a MI, I'm sure treatment of those pts. is the last priority for the staff.
I have heard once she has medication adjustments, she is fully aware of what crimes she committed so nobody should worry that Yates is not suffering for her crimes. YET, we all know that her children suffered the most.

Gozgals

 

[narlacat]

I think if you read all of Jeana's posts you will understand her point. I don't think Jeana thinks Andrea Yates saved her kids. I think Jeana thinks Andrea believes she saved her kids.

I read them.
Her posts confuse me at the best of times.
She doesn't explain herself very well and loses people, me included.

 

[reb]

the fact that everything points to the fact that she was a good mother beforehand and was so psychotic that she honestly thought she was saving her kids from damnation points to insanity more than anything i can think of. once again,, (and again & again),, the other extreme would be a mother who killed her kids for greed, or the insurance money, because the kids were getting in the way of her affair with another man, or she thought they were ugly, etc.. do you see the difference? between a sane killing and an insane one? obviously once she got medicated and snapped out of her psychosis she feels pain and remorse over it, her life is ruined. in america we show a little bit more mercy on people who truly fit the definition of insanity. (especially, when someone didn't cause their own insanity because of drug use!)

yeah, we know,, "but she still killed her kids". but she did it in a state of extreme psychosis... NOT in a normal state of mind, NOT because of money, greed, or other reasons. if she did, she'd probably get the death penalty. but she didn't, so she didn't.

that being said, i certainly despise it when any common criminal tries to use the insanity or retardation defense. but this is one of those cases that OBVIOUSLY fits the definition of insanity. she was not a conniving, scheming mother hoping to do away with her kids and pretending to be 'insane'. she was a loving, attentive mother, and her mental problems were long-standing and well-documented, and her husband and doctor & others were all witnesses to the fact!

how many more ways does this have to be spelled out before people get it??? if people want to push her off a cliff or stone her or whatever, then maybe you might be better off in a different type of society. i think a lot of the hatred towards her comes from the fact that she IS 'defective' (mentally). but in our society we make insane people pay for their crimes, but we don't consider them 100% liable because of their organic brain disease. so we put them in hospitals instead of jail. i don't think anyone thinks she's going to 'get better' and go out and lead a normal life and be a happy homemaker again. we know she's sane enough now to realize the enormity of her crimes.

this isn't an easy issue... but i think our justice system does the best it can in this situation. you all should save your hatred for the SANE people who neglect, abuse & kill their kids (or others) for stupid, selfish reasons.

one more note-- i think a lot of people have more hate for someone like her, the cuter the kids are. try to put that issue aside and look at the logical facts here. getting all emotional over the kids' cuteness has nothing to do with the issue here. yes, they were cute, and happy & healthy- and there's a million people out there who would have gladly adopted them. but that is a separate issue from the one of: why did she do it, and what does society do with her now?

 

[narlacat]

Just what society has done, lock her up and throw away the key.

She doesn't deserve anything else.

I was being harsh agreeing with throwing her off the cliff, we all have bad hair days.

 

[Gozgals]

narlacat:

A short note to say that I think you are being very fair and your open-mindedness is to be commended. Must people do feel she should be thrown off a cliff. You didn't have a bad hair day, (IMO) you are just a good person, that's just the way I call it.
Maybe I roll different then other people.

Thanks for given Yates the benefit of the doubt. She is where she belongs, safely put away where no harm will come to anyone else.


Have a great day
Gozgals

 

[narlacat]

Gozgals
Thanks for your words, kind of you.

But to be fair, I do have bad hair days lol

You have a great day too (or night, whatever the case may be)

 

[kcksum]

They are both not guilty by reason of insanity. If any of you think that spending what will most likely be the rest of their lives in a state run mental hospital is a picnic, you've seriously got another thing coming. Most people have said they'd rather be on death row. BOTH of their husbands KNEW that they were loosing their minds and BOTH of their husbands left them alone with small children. If you read about Schlosser, you'll learn that more than a few times, he begged mental hospital staff to release her and PROMISED that with his help and the help of their extended family, he would MAKE SURE that she took her meds and attended her counselling. Even as his lips were moving, he knew that it was a lie because their church did not believe in any of it. He simply wanted her at home, mentally deranged or not. Yates wasn't much better. The only thing that prevented those children from being murdered much sooner than they were was his mother being there some of the time. Unless and until society stops BLAMING those who are mentally ill and starts accepting the fact that a great many people need psychiatric help for whatever reason and removes the stigma from them, more children will die needlessly.

very well said. Until society stops making mental illness a dirty secret, more men will be un willing to help their wives and more small children will fall vistim to their deranged mothers. If you read their testimony, both of these women believed they were actually helping their children, saving them.

 

[peepers20056]

REB!! thank you. It break,s my heart when compasion is not there when it should be.I believe heart & soul that rusty yates is more guilty than Andrea.Some that I can<t get out of my mind from the first day iheard about all this & it was the phone call Andrea made TO rusty morning. Andrea said to rust come home now .I did it . HE!!!! said back WHICH ONE. SHE said allof Them. does any rememthis. also have you seen he & his new wife she is young enough (TOOO young )to give rusty many more. SO does it not mmatter to any one his part in all. SET up ANDREA or.GIVe the extra nudge.THESE two weomen are ligit when it comes to the word SICK.I don,t meanthis in nasty way. But if ever this this wasthe time to use the insanity defence. thank you for allowing this rant . :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: